Gimme Theology
Essays, Featured — By Karen Spears Zacharias on December 7, 2009 at 12:00 am
I don’t think God has access to email, so I don’t know how he responds to email prayers, or even if he does. I have a difficult time enough praying the conventional way. I’m not about to waste my emotional energy sending out prayers of anguish and gratitude to free-float in Cyber-space next to some Spammer’s, who is hitting God up for an off-shore bank account.
But a friend recently forwarded an email prayer he received from a loved one. No doubt the person who sent this email had the best of intentions. They were simply looking for a way to bless him, and get a little stash for themselves in the process.
The prayer was sent along with a note that declared, “I claimed it for you, now claim it for me.” It also came with a warning to not tarry because doing so might put a person’s financial well-being in jeopardy. There was no word on how it might also affect a person’s spiritual standing but I imagine delayed prayer is never a good thing as far as God is concerned. So here it is – the Prayer for Finances:
Heavenly Father, most Gracious and Loving God, I pray to you that you abundantly bless my family and me. I know that you recognize that a family is more than just a mother, father, sister, brother, cousin, husband and wife, but all who believe and trust in You. Dear God, I send up a prayer request for financial blessing for not only the person who sent this to me, but for me and all that I have forwarded this message to. And that the power of joined prayer by those who believe and trust in you is more powerful than anything! I thank you in advance for your blessings. God, deliver the person reading this right now from debt and debt burdens. Release your godly wisdom that I may be a good steward over all that you have given me God, for I know how wonderful and mighty you are and how if we just obey you and walk in your word and have the faith of a mustard seed that you will pour out blessings. I thank you now Lord for the recent blessings I have received and for the blessings yet to come, because I know you are not done with me yet. In Jesus name. Amen
You might as well douse my head in gasoline and light a match to it – that’s how fired up I get over the notion that God wants to prosper us. It’s dookie, people.
But Americans, in particular, believe it. There was a time in our history when the American Dream was about living a life free from persecution. But every since leg irons and the King James’ version of the Bible lost favor with the people, prospering is what the American Dream has become all about. Looks like we may have traded one form of debtor’s prison for another.
A report in Atlantic Monthly (Dec.2009) suggests that the prosperity gospel is, in part, responsible for Wall Street’s economic collapse. According to the article, pastors in Latino and African-American communities were specifically targeted by lenders hawking sub-prime mortgages. They were offering kick-backs to the churches for referrals. Meanwhile the message being preached from the pulpit was that God wanted to make his people rich. He wanted them to own homes, not just any home but the best home they couldn’t afford. All they had to do was trust God for it.
“I wasn’t very surprised when the whole subprime-mortgage thing blew up,” said Tian-Ren Lin, a researcher at the University of Virginia who studies Latino prosperity gospel congregations. “I’m sure a loan officer never said, ‘God wants you to have a house.’ But you’ve already been taught that. Now here comes the loan officer saying, ‘Sign here, and this house will be yours.’ It feels like a gift from God. It’s the perfect fuel for the crisis.”
The Big Life under the Jesus Tent is the most popular message preached from shore to shining shore. In Atlanta, Creflo Dollar tells his people that the word of God is the gateway to the world of wealth. In Houston, Joel Osteen, who inherited his father’s church and grew it to the nation’s largest, urges his flock to expect the favor of God. “This will be a year of your unprecedented favor,” he claims.
The same scriptures are quoted over and over again – John 10:10 and Jeremiah 29:11 – as evidence of God’s promise to us for the big rich life now. Note how the different translations of those verses are reflected by the culture shift toward personal prosperity.
The New King James Version of John 10:10 reads: “I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.”
The Message, the current favorite, reads: “I came so they can have real and eternal life, more and better life than they ever dreamed of.”
The contrast in Jeremiah 29: 11 is even more startling. The New King James reads: “For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope.”
And The Message version? “I know what I’m doing. I have it all planned out—plans to take care of you, not abandon you, plans to give you the future you hope for.”
To give us the future we hope for. Wow. Clearly gambling on God is going to improve our odds at striking it rich sooner rather than later.
You might think that such a message would be a hard sell with unemployment rates hovering in the double-digits and the frightening mess of foreclosures nationwide, but it’s more popular than ever. What better way to draw in a crowd than to ramp up the message that God wants to give us a better job, a bigger home, if only we’ll send out the email claiming it?
Osteen says God wants to give us the money to send our kids to college, to buy ourselves nice cars. “Our message is that God wants you to have plenty to pay your bills.” Rarely do those hawking the God Gimme theology concern themselves with the 25,000 children dying daily due to global poverty.
Thankfully, there is a sizable remnant that has rejected the Big Life under the Jesus Tent. They are members of the Gimme God movement. These believers take to heart the Our Father prayer. They claim God’s will can be done here on earth as it is in heaven. And for them, fulfilling God’s will is about serving others.
I’ve witnessed them passing out hot coffee and warm biscuits to the cold and hungry on a winter morning. I’ve seen them load up the dirty laundry of the homeless and hand back the clothes cleaned from the week before. I’ve marveled when they’ve gone online and raised thousands of dollars in a matter of hours to build schools in Vietnam, wells in Kenya or homes in Haiti.
They meet in warehouse churches, crowd into ranch houses, tweet their peeps, or pool around cups of coffee and discuss ways in which they can be the hands and feet of Christ. They move into neglected neighborhoods and plant gardens and build food banks. They give shelter to runaway teens, teach reading to the elderly who’ve never learned, and sit with the depressed and dying because they believe that when Jesus said he came to give life more abundantly, to bring about heaven here on earth, this is what he meant.
When they pray, they don’t say God gimme more. They pray Gimme more of God.
37 Comments
Applause.
I completely agree with the author’s sentiments here.
But with respect to John 10 and Jeremiah 29 — shouldn’t we disagree with the substance of how those verses are interpreted rather than the translations? A hoped-for future and/or a better life aren’t necessarily linked to the material…
I agree. The word in Jeremiah 29:11 is “shalom” and gets translated, depending on the translation, into “prosper” or “welfare.”
Pretty big difference in how those two are interpreted these days, but when we hear “shalom” most of us don’t think financial prosperity.
Having said that, I agree with Karen’s general premise. The purpose of prayer is not to present God with a list of “gimme, gimme, gimme”.
But there is nothing wrong with asking God for provision, or for anything else. Hannah asked God for a son. The difference-maker is, why are we asking? Hannah wanted to glorify God, and she gave Samuel right back to God. Are the Creflo Dollar/Osteen/TBN fans buying into his message because they want extra money to help the poor? I am sure it’s possible that someone, somewhere is asking God for those reasons. But the Prosperity gospel message doesn’t seem to be reaching out to those people.
Great article! I watched one of Joel Osteen’s shows a week or so ago. Sounded more like a self-help pep talk than a sermon.
I have a pretty nuanced response to this.
First of all, God does desire to bless us – this isn’t strictly spiritual blessing. 3 John 2: Beloved I desire that you prosper and be in health even as your soul prospers. There’s a million other verses besides that one, but I’ll move on.
Secondly, people get all up in arms when Christians (who get labeled “Name It and Claim It” or whatever else) make demands of God in the areas of health and wealth, specifically. However, we are in a covenant – a contract – with God, as well as in relationship. You don’t make demands in a relationship. But you can make demands on a contract. That was the original premise – God’s covenant with Abraham, where He promised both spiritual and physical blessing. And Abraham was blessed – spiritually and physically (financially). That’s theologically sound. (We are Abraham’s seed and therefore heirs according to the promise, says Paul to the Galatians.)
Thirdly, I’m sure not all prosperity pastors were above board, but Creflo Dollar, while he does preach health and wealth does not promote going into debt for anything. To the contrary, he’d tell you to believe God to be able to pay cash for your house, cars and everything else. So I don’t think that’s a very fair grouping. He certainly isn’t to blame for the mortgage crisis. That’s an asinine claim.
Osteen does sound more like Dr. Phil than Jesus Christ in a lot of ways. That said, God wants us to keep our word and that would include paying our bills on time.
Shalom means “nothing missing, nothing broken” and it is applied biblically in regards to spirit, soul and body.
The Lord blesses and heals people in Scripture, why is it wrong to believe that he will bless us now?
For the record, I’m not praying for a Mercedes. But I have watched God bless me physically, instantly and I don’t doubt that it’s his will or believe it was “just luck”.
One of the paradoxes of the Scripture is that poverty is to be both sought and avoided. That makes it hard to argue both/and in our either/or worldview.
Tor
Victoria, thanks for picking up on the difference between Prosperity preachers and those who would encourage congregants to get into debt above what they can handle. Not that I defend Creflo or the others. They make my skin crawl as much as they do Karen’s. But the story she links to above is talking about some banks appealing to some local, not famous preachers who also preach that God wants to make you rich.
Do the banks bear any responsibility for this? I would say so. Do we have laws that caused banks to lean this way? Absolutely. In fact, many of those laws were praised by those who normally praise social justice.
Then again, there are also the people who took on the debt they couldn’t afford. Surely they must take some blame for the mess.
As with most messes, there are multiple parties responsible. It is my understanding that Karen wasn’t denying this, but expressing her outrage at the fact that one of the many who caused this mess used churches and false teachings to do it. And that’s truly reprehensible.
Thanks, Karen, for calling out what needs to be called out here. The prosperity gospel is an affront to the sufficiency of Christ, and while I’m sure many of its ministers and adherents are well-meaning, they are caught up in a theology that turns Biblical discipleship upside down.
I’ve been to West Africa twice to work with an orphanage (and am now on the ministy’s board) and have heard some of the outworkings of the prosperity gospel that has come out of this country. It angers me.
If you haven’t seen this video of John Piper decrying the prosperity gospel, please do so: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTc_FoELt8s It’ll make your spine tingle.
Having said all of this, I also wanted to respectfully challenge part of your conclusion. I love the heart that you speak to when you talk about those you have seen being the hands and feet of Christ. And we certainly all need to be awakened from our comfortable slumber to find and minister to people in need.
But I’d also say the answer to the prosperity gospel is not the social gospel. I may be taking your sentiments too far in calling them that, but I think we risk losing the heart of the gospel in either: one focuses too much on the rich, the other too much on the poor.
I think you said it best in your final statement: “Gimme more of God.” He is sufficient for all our needs; He satisfies our deepest longings. When we treasure Him with our deepest affections and remain in Him as a branch remains in the vine, then He will unleash the fullness of life you talk about through us, for our joy and His glory, in an abundance of fruit, which will in turn serve to meet the needs of others.
I hope I have not misrepresented your thoughts; thank you for taking the time to write this essay!
Wow, I’m mot even going to try and defend Joel as I feel God showed me He would in an awesome way. What I do want to say to others is do go to God first and foremost there and in every area of life.
Please, please, hear God’s voice first and foremost.
This man has been a blessing to so many others. And what so impressed me about him, beyond what I feel God showed, is that He seems to understand he is a portion. Many miss that and that is part of many of the misunderstandings nowadays. I have so much more to say on that but many are no longer open to teachings.
For now I will say that I feel where many have failed in the body of Christ is in this understanding: Even as God haa given offices in his body as a gift to his body, WE ALL SHOULD FIRST AND FOREMOST HEAR PERSONALLY FROM HIM. If we did this, we can stop this blame game that didn’t go over well in the garden of eden either, and all understand our responsibility to our heavenly Father first and foremost.
And I speak in general terms, not saying anyone personally is blaming. I have so much I can share here but don’t know how well it will be received.
Jo,
One of my friends was at a large event once where Joel Osteen was speaking. There was a line out the door, and she told me when she went and saw what was at the front, it was Joel Osteen, sitting there smiling with his bleached, expensive teeth, in his thousands-of-dollars suit, signing Bibles. SIGNING BIBLES. That’s when I truly started to question the heart of the man. He didn’t write that book, and maybe if he read more of it, about how, God doesn’t desire for us to be rich, he desires for us to be in relationship with Him, he wouldn’t have been putting his name where it didn’t belong.
I want to thank God right now for Joel Osteen who has been such an encouragement to my aging parents. Joel, thank God they are getting better. Tears in my eyes I say this. Thank God for you. Thank God for you. Thakn God for you. I so love you.
Chris: You give me more credit than I deserve. Not sure I was ever thinking that social gospel was the “answer” to the prosperity gospel. Completely agree with your summation re: Gimme more of God.
Someone else pointed me toward Piper’s sermon the other day. Excellent sermon. Wish it had been preached from Osteen’s pulpit.
Olive/James, et.all: Regarding remarks about translation. You all said it better than I did.
Jo & Victoria: Somebody give me a match, please.
“Jo & Victoria: Somebody give me a match, please.”
Sis, do know my intention was not to disregard your, or anyone else’s grievances there. I been there. I know I see in part but I also know the whole is found in Jesus and his heart.
I cannot disregard what God has given me, as you shouldn’t disregard what He has given you too.
I think you are a very beautiful woman in and out. I know beyond the surface details God sees the heart and I sense you have a lovely heart. I sense Joel does too and he is beautiful to me too. I see Jesus in both of you. I love you both and I love Jesus in both of you.
If I am off I welcome that fire. Just look to God to give you that match, not man. He can and does. His fruits are those unseen essentials that will withstand his fire. And the greatest of these is His Love.
I’m sorry if I unnecessarily hurt you in what I said. Why hasn’t anyone apologized to us on the other side yet? Why? Why? Why?
Jo, nobody needs to apologize to anyone. I’ll paste something I wrote in a comment above:
“As with most messes, there are multiple parties responsible. It is my understanding that Karen wasn’t denying this, but expressing her outrage at the fact that one of the many who caused this mess used churches and false teachings to do it. And that’s truly reprehensible.”
Jo, if a bank targeted some local churches and found a way to use their leaders to get some of their congregants to take out loans that would eventually ruin them, wouldn’t you be as angry as she is at the twisting of the Gospel?
JO: I need all the people praying for me I can get. So thanks for that. RE: apology, not exactly sure what I’d be apologizing for. I believe that Joel Osteen’s gift is encouragement. He’s a tremendous motivational speaker. I just wish he wouldn’t cloak himself in the garment of Christ and call it preaching. It’s not.
Morever, this sort of teaching creates a great deal of misconception inside and outside the faith community.
God is not our genie.
He is not our personal assistant.
He is not our banker.
There is nothing wrong with asking God to meet your needs, but to suggest that God owes us better than we’ve gotten is a slap in the face and a kick in the ass to the millions of people worldwide who live without clean water or daily nourishment or medical care.
It says to them: God doesn’t love you as much as he does Americans because you don’t honor him and trust him like we do.
As Rich Mullins once said, the people who preach this type of gospel aren’t bad, they are just wrong.
Joel Osteen isn’t a bad man. He’s just wrong.
ksz
Karen, I heard an old song on the radio yesterday, by Ambrosia. Because I had just read your post, I started giggling as I heard David Pack singing as if he was God as pictured by the Prosperity crowd:
“Make a wish, baby
And I will make it come true.
Make a list baby
Of the things I’ll do for you
Ain’t no risk now
Let my love rain down on you”
As you can see, it doesn’t take much to make me laugh.
I am, in fact, a genie. I keep writing Joel and telling him that. I don’t understand why he never writes back.
Karen, with this comment, you highlight what I think is the biggest problem that I have with the Prosperity Gospel. When we engage this line of thinking, we pray to God focusing on us, and we don’t focus on Him.
In Wild at Heart, John Eldredge says:
“We are now in the late stages of the long and vicious war against the human heart. …This is where many people feel abandoned or betrayed by God. They thought that becoming a Christian would somehow end their troubles, or at least reduce them considerably. No one ever told them they were being moved to the front lines, and they seem genuinely shocked at the fact that they’ve been shot at.”
==================
Actually, that is one of two problems I have with Prosperity theology. The other is that in the verses and passages cited by Prosperity proponents, God consistently blesses someone with abundance for the purposes of blessing others. Not for their own benefit. TBN preachers don’t preach that.
Here’s one of many examples, spoken by Jesus to some wealthy men:
Luke 14:12-14a “Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: And thou shalt be blessed;”
I don’t see anyone that couldn’t use more work (including Joel and me), and I hear where you are coming from, even as I may not agree with everything but I don’t claim to know it all and have it all right myself. I know “being right” is found in the heart of God connected to Jesus, not the changing surface landscape.
I’ve been there. I still go there, all as the Lord would connect my heart. I have shed many tears and sent up many prayers for the body of Christ as a whole. The whole world is groaning as if in birth pains for the sons of God to be revealed. I feel the pain deeply as I don’t doubt others do too. Sometimes I wondered if I would survive but this is my portion too in taking up the sufferings of Christ in his body, his people. I look to Him to see me through and He does. And oh but how wonderful when God births forth his Life-filled treasures from us. What we thought may kill us is soon lost in the joy of New Life found in Him.
I don’t agree with everything he says either, as with 99.9 percent of those I have come across, but I see so much that I find beneficial and agree with too. I’ve enjoyed seeing his gifting coming through and am benefitting, along with many others. I have wondered though when I have heard something that I didn’t care how it came across, if it is because he doesn’t elaborate as much in other areas and I can’t say why as I don’t know. I’m thinking “some” is probably due to time. Maybe due to just doing what he feels God called him to. And others times it is probably some error too.
Again, I would not take away from anyone’s grievances in what they feel they see. I’m not telling anyone to stop what they feel God has called them to either. It isn’t for me to say. I think that would be horrendously wrong to do of my own. I see too much banning with their own kind and locking others out that see some things differently and as such I wouldn’t look to do the same. I don’t intend to pretend I know their hearts in doing this. God does and can use it. I don’t doubt He gets the ball rolling too. As long as we understand it is allotted for a time and season in his greater overall purposes, to unite us corporately to make up the full stature of Jesus.
What I often see is that at times this grouping gets sidetracked into thinking they have the whole and then they look to do away with other parts of the body. You understand that, don’t you. I read the other article.
If it is an offense to you and would prevent you from entering the kingdom of God, do cut it off from yourself personally “as God would lead”. But do know that some of us may need those other body parts and are benefitting from it.
I hear people speak and it concerns me that what I hear them talking about, they themselves appear to be doing the same thing, but God knows the heart as these things can be decieving on surface. I’m just not that confident in myself. I wonder how many times I myself may have done it and may still be doing it. But I know the heart of the matter is the matter of the heart and if I keep my heart before God and remain in Jesus, He will lead me well.
I’ve seen where in this grouping it becomes more about their portion instead of Jesus. He is the whole. This is where we are all eventually heading. We can have a portion of his Light but it is so dim in comparison to how bright it will be when we make up his full stature. The whole world will marvel as they see. All will bow down and claim that Jesus is Lord. Many will mourn too when the sons of God are revealed for they will also see whom it was that they have pierced, Jesus through his body. And I been there, done that too, and may even still go there at times. Yet when we know better we have a responsibility and a greater accountability. God help us all.
But going back to that door, if that door is closed on me and I proceeded to force my way in, that could cause unnecessary harm to me and to those on the other side. I’m not looking to hurt anyone and I am not looking to hurt Jesus. So I look to go away when that is done, even as I look forward to the reunions. Above all I look to be joined to Jesus’ heart and continue to follow Him. He said his sheep will hear his voice and we know his voice leads to Him, Father God’s answer to humanity.
Do hear his voice above all.
And I don’t doubt at all that at times this banning can be beneficial for us in our present state. Even I have found it beneficial at times when my heart has been vulnerable. Unless God reveals to me the heart of the matter in various places with various people (as circumstances and hearts vary), I don’t know why at heart and do know I would be wrong to judge heart matters by surface view.
I’m not going to go on about Joel (just wanted to share that part above) because I feel it would then just turn into something I wouldn’t want it to and we may miss the more essential. What I do want to reiterate is this. We should all first and foremost hear from God above what man is saying. Yes, he can speak through them first and does. We just have to remember there are different levels to hearing and sometimes what we first hear may be the invitation to come closer to God through Jesus so we can be connected to his heart where true sight and true hearing at the deepest level are. That would be for me too. We all are accountable to hear from God first and foremost. Let us be cautious about doing away with our personal accountability. Some do have greater accountability in their roles as overseers, but we have ours too.
I cry with you. My tears and heart are with you. My prayers are with you. I may not agree with all the surface details but I share with you at that deeper level of the heart.
God sees the heart. Yes, we can make awful mistakes with the right heart but also having ignorance, but God sees the heart. He can reveal a man’s heart too. I personally have to wonder though how willing He is to do that if our hearts themselves are not joined to his. So, we should share and speak the truth in love. We should continue to pray for each other (and however else God may lead) for we are called to be a royal priesthood, a house of prayer for humanity, like Jesus interceeds to Father for humanity.
When I spoke of the sorry I spoke of it more generally. I identify myself in there with the Lord’s body and as such I feel I can say I am sorry for areas I feel there may have been unnecessary pain. And I can say I am sorry to Jesus too and I have because He is so connected to our pain as his body. He feels all our hurts too. I personally don’t have to be the individual doing it, but I won’t deny I have gone there too.
Do know what I have spoken of in what I see with my partial view I speak in general terms.
That is all I have to say. I hope it is helpful. And I don’t claim to know it all and have it all right so do pray about it and allow God to show you personally.
Love in Jesus,
Jo
I have deep suspicion of anything that even remotely appears like it could possibly be even slightly similar to any form of “prosperity” or “name it/claim it” gospel. Prayer of Jabez makes me very sick – though I know it has meant a lot to people. There are indeed instructions to call out to the Lord, and to trust God to meet our needs, and sometimes that occurs in material ways, and sometimes (perhaps more often than not), it doesn’t. Do we love God because we can get something from God, or do we love God no matter what (ever seen The Hiding Place)?
Trusting in God does not necessarily mean I will be taken care of materially. It can, and when I am, I give thanks. But I pray for a job, or pray for a raise, or pray for no-one to get sick because of crappy (or lack of) health insurance . . . and I am faithful in my prayers, and in my Bible-readings, and in my service, and that job doesn’t come, that raise doesn’t come, the kids get very ill and rack up tons of medical bills . . . Am I not doing something right?
Did Jeremiah not know about Jabez, which is why he was treated so poorly by “God’s” children? Did Jesus not know about Jabez, which is why he was a homeless ragamuffin and a condemned criminal? Do Donald Trump and the Enron/MCI / Wall Street “golden parachute” CEOS have deeper faith and better righteousness than did Mother Theresa?
One CANNOT overemphasize the scriptural commands about the poor and poverty issues, unless one simply tosses out the large majority of our scriptures. For God is clearly concerned for economic justice, but any thought that signs of wealth are God’s blessings and signs of poverty are signs of God’s displeasure is against Scripture.
Gimme God – but I’d like financial security; I like my rental house; I like my hand-me-down Macbook; and my 10-year-old television set; but I could lose all these things today (and would be quite depressed), but in the end, God is still there and still with me, and maybe even blessing more than ever – for, as Frederick Buechner says when speaking of Job and on prayer — pray and ask. And keep on praying and keep on asking. But in the end we may find that what God gives us is nothing we are asking for, but Himself. Which is what we most deeply need anyway.
As one prophet put it, “you can’t always get what you want, but if you try sometims, you just might find, you get what you need” (i.e. God)
And as another prophet sarcastically put it (prophets have an irritating tendency to mock and be sarcastic):
“Oh Lord, won’t you buy me, a Mercedes Benz;
my friends all drive Porches, I must make amends;
worked hard of my lifetime, no help from my friends;
oh Lord, won’t you buy me a Mercedez Benz.”
In times of plenty, Paul says, be thankful. And in times of great need, Paul says, be thankful. Because what matters most, and what we should be asking for, seeking, and desiring more than anything, is God.
vanity, vanity. all else is vanity.
that’s my sermon. somebody pass the offering plate, please; my internet bill is due. ; – )
Karen writes:
There is nothing wrong with asking God to meet your needs, but to suggest that God owes us better than we’ve gotten is a slap in the face and a kick in the ass to the millions of people worldwide who live without clean water or daily nourishment or medical care.
It says to them: God doesn’t love you as much as he does Americans because you don’t honor him and trust him like we do.
As Rich Mullins once said, the people who preach this type of gospel aren’t bad, they are just wrong.
I concur completely. And I love Rich Mullins. a true prophetic voice, was he.
Amen, amen and AMEN!
An old Roger Water’s tune that pokes at TV preaching…
http://www.lyricsdepot.com/roger-waters/what-god-wants-pt-1.html
I LOVE ROGER WATERS AND LOVE THIS SONG!
Frederick Buechner says to just pray, and ask, and seek. And keep praying, and keep asking, and keep seeking. And even when you don’t get what you want, you may find that what God gives you is Himself – which is our deepest need anyway.
The prophet says the same thing: “you can’t always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need.”
Years ago a friend, with the best of intentions, urged me to read and follow THE PRAYER OF JABEZ. I read it out of respect for my friend. Twice.
All I could think of was … apparently Jeremiah and Amos didn’t know about the prayer of Jabez; apparently the apostle Paul didn’t know about the prayer of Jabez; apparently John the Revelator didn’t know about the prayer of Jabez; and obviously, the Son of God Himself – Jesus our Lord – was totally ignorant of the prayer of Jabez and what God wants for us . . .
Thanks, Karen, for a great article!
Didn’t think I would be back as soon. “Know I speak for me” as I say that I have been looking to avoid the most current virus, “swine flu”. Sense it coming my way when I am vulnerable and that is a good time for a time out and continue to pour out my heart before the Lord. If we get infected we can start contaminating others and trampling on their treasures from above. Jesus is our wonderful medicine there, our vaccination from that bug.
I like to share but I know the Holy Spirit is our leader and we should all allow him to lead us personally. We don’t need to do away with teachers. We need to understand that the Holy Spirit is our ultimate Teacher and Leader. And He lives within the believer in Christ. There are many voices competing for our attention and even the enemy disguises himself as an angel of Light. Yet the Holy Spirit lives within you and He will confirm his voice to us within. Sometimes we may need to prayerfully wait and sometimes take a prayerful step, jut keep your heart before Him. He will let you know. You can hear from Him for yourself. He wants to speak to you and lead you well.
Again, we can avoid so much errors if we understood that.
Remember who is accusing the brethren day and night and let us leave his darkened ways behind. And not saying anyone is doing that. I will let the Lord speak to each, including myself. Sometimes though, we do skate on thin ice. Don’t we?
Anyway, thought you all may enjoy these. If not, that’s cool too.
This first one is so beautiful to me.
Song: How He Loves Us
Artist: Kim Walker / Jesus Culture
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoC1ec-lYps&feature=related
Ok, this next one I love. I couldn’t believe I found it. This song actually got me back in Christian music about 20 years ago. Brings me back. It puts a big smile on my face and even makes me laugh as I remember this dancing and such. And the boys are soooooooooo cute here.
I also love the message. Don’t know all their music but some I have heard is awesome in its sharing the gospel. Let us keep reaching for higher ground.
Song: Heaven Bound
Artist: DC Talk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ClRxHBtI6Y
Merry Christmas everyone and a prosperous New Year in Christ.
Happy Birthday Jesus.
Oh, hey, here we go again. Wanted to add this as I feel it would help some.
“There are generally two sides to a story and all too often we are only equipped with our side. But if we take the time to open up and “honestly” communicate, we will be given the view from the other side. If we go that route, let us also try to avoid making the discussion about a hurtful blame game. See even though our neighbor plays a part and the Lord will allow our humanity to play out, we are all first and foremost responsible to Him. He is our answer and our Source and the One we are first accountable to. Know the higher view is the one seen from being connected to his heart.
Try talking about how it makes you feel, owning up to your feelings instead. And as you do you may find that you are pleasantly surprised by your neighbor’s understanding and ability to relate. We tend to feel the need to protect ourselves from others’ blame when they don’t consider our view and validate our challenges and pain.
And if you share your heart and hurtful accusations come, feel free to guard it for out of it flows the wellsprings of life. The enemy is called the accuser of the brethren, but we can choose to leave his darkened ways behind and move forward in Christ. When the Holy Spirit puts his finger on something in our lives it is to bring healing in Jesus, not to condemn. Do continue to love and pray for all for this offering is a sweet fragrance unto God.”
—Anyway, wanted to share this as this is a part of something I had written. Do know it is just a portion but thought it may help here.
After I wrote the whole thing I went to bed and shortly afterwards saw a dark sky with the sun coming through the dark clouds. The dark clouds were parting as the sun came through. Feel the Lord was showing me that it was something worthwhile and would help dispense of the darkness.
Felt it could help here.
I’ll add this piece, a portion from something a friend wrote that I think is wonderful too:
“To the degree that we create an atmosphere of trust is to the same degree we can open our hearts to one another. Trust is built through consistency, careful speech, kindness and humility.
Trust is destroyed through arrogance, careless words, harshness and sin. When trust has been broken, it can only be rebuilt when the offender takes responsibility for his or her behavior and begins to consistently display a sincere heart.”
Ok, gotta go but thought it may help. Things I am learning and growin in too as I am……progressin in Jesus.
Love in Him,
Jo
I enjoyed the article Karen, but as others have stated above regarding the dangers of replacing the prosperity gospel with the social gospel, I would count anyone foolish who claims this as the final word on the matter… Which is why I enjoyed the article: It was one thought/response to one issue/circumstance.
As far as Jo is concerned, my struggle is the apparent humanistic view being disguised as a “Jesus first and only” view. The references to “our portion” and “I do not claim to know how God is using different gifts” screams man-centered-theology. That is a problem no matter how sincere the motive.
I enjoyed reading the comment about the N.T. saints (and Christ) not having known the Prayer of Jabez… God blesses who He blesses and loves who He loves for His purpose and His glory… We have no control or “claim” over that.
My response to the article is this:
We pray because we are commanded to. We communicate to God our needs in prayer because of our relationship with Him. We count on His promises because His word says we can and should. We do all of this in worship and obedience because He’s worthy to worship and worthy to obey. How He responds is His will…
If God chooses to bless His saints with wealth it is His perogative, but it is very unlikely that He blesses individuals to enhance their kingdom. It would make more sense that He blesses those in His kingdom to further the cause of His kingdom “in earth as it is in heaven.” So… not necessarily “social gospel”… definitely not “prosperity gospel” but ABSOLUTELY His gospel.
God is God… He is going to be God.. and it is our purpose to glorify Him in word and deed and “let the chips fall where they lay.”
I cannot claim to know the personality of God. That said, I do not believe that God has much stake in the physical circumstances of our lives. I think the point of the spiritual life is not wealth, poverty, fame, or obscurity, but love. When Jesus spoke about the Kingdom of Heaven he used parables. In one of these famous parables a landowner employs workers to harvest his crops throughout the course of a day and at the end of the day pays each of them the same regardless of how long they worked. If God’s kingdom were concerned with material wealth I do not believe such a parable would apply. Instead God’s kingdom is concerned with a reward that is far less quantifiable and judging from the way Jesus describes fulfilling “the law and the prophets” that reward is probably love. I think that is why the “Social Gospel” works for many people, because it is a means for them, through generosity, to move their attention from their own selfish needs and desires to the needs and desires of others and thus expand their consciousness to include more love. It is the same medicine Jesus prescribed.
I don’t know what Osteen and TBN and the like produce for those they minister to, perhaps they are doing some real good in the service of God. For me, I’ll take the “social gospel” over the “prosperity gospel” anyday. Service will inevitably lead to prosperity in all the ways that matter anyway.
*note – I am assuming that the “social gospel” refers to those teachers and organizations that promote social action in the form of serving the needy both locally and intenationally
Hi Guy. I’m guesssing you are a guy. Pretty brilliant of me huh? I have my moments.
Brother, thank you for your input. I can appreciate it. I want to ask this though. Just some food for prayerful thought. Does not our humanity play a role too? It did in the life of Jesus too. He was not only Son of God but also Son of man to bridge that gap between God and man. He’s the bridge, our High Priest as appointed by God. You can read about it in those first few chapters in Hebrews (and realize you may know this already, in case though). But everything is a branch that needs to find its home in Jesus, our root. Everything was made through Him and for Him. This is what I mean by Jesus first.
Alot of what I share I liken to the two greatest commandments. The first is to love the Lord with all our hearts, our souls, and our might.
The second is to love our neighbors as ourselves. The second just needs to find its home in the first. And in these two commandments in Jesus do all others find it home.
I also do want to say that I’m not hear to convince anyone of anything, just sharing what I have learned and know I am still learning and growing and human error can come in. Here’s portions again – some plant, some water, but God is the most important one that makes the seed grow.
I’m not here to convince anyone either that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, the Life and Light. But I do know Him to be that so I come from that place, not to convince anyone, but to share and allow the Lord to grow the seed as He chooses.
And I am learning and growing too. I am progressing in Jesus too.
My home base is a place that sees in the Spirit. Yet even Spiritual sight, as with all gifts needs to find its home in Jesus. I have been in training in both the Airforce and the army, or the Spiritual plane and the humanistic plane, as I am sure others have too. I know from my home base they have. I have looked to bring in the humanistic plane to the Spiritually sighted. I also look to bring the Spiritual plane to those that may be journeying more on ground level. And most important, for all of it to find its home in Jesus. Apart from him, it is severed from Life. True sight and hearing come from being connected to his heart.
Much conflict and wars come from not seeing how all these things are beneficial and good as they find their home in Jesus, being rooted in Him. Apart from Him, it will take on perversion and we can then find ourselves following after the lusts of the flesh and more.
Much conflict too can come from not understanding that their are two journeys we are all on. The individual journey and the corporate one as God would connect us. Let us just say I don’t fully buy the motto, “It’s not about me”. To me that is a corporate view and a very good one and biblical at that. But in our personal relationship with God He does see me and makes it about me and Him in our intimate relationship together. We shouldn’t rob anyone of that, too precious to let go of.
You have to be cautious about portions. Here is something that will help there. Over your head, your heart will have the “loud speaker” so to speak. Doesn’t mean it is coming from the right place in Christ, but God can confirm that or let us know where it is off and get us back on track as we take our hearts to Him.
I will say this too. I do believe some of us are called to cross over and offer the view from the other side too.
I have also had my concerns with what He shows me from time to time that is going on.
If we don’t understand portions and their roles in the overall picture of Jesus, we can start attacking each other, or looking to do away with something revelant. I need to watch it too. I see this too often in the body of Christ. We can view it more like a puzzle with each piece needing to find its home in Jesus, all things for Him and through Him.
And yes, He can use it either way. We are all being refined and conformed to the image of Christ. We are all either honorable vessels or dihonorable ones, but vessels we are. We are all also on a progressive journey. God knows when to call more for such things in our lives.
I do believe I am one that is called to cross over and I do believe that is why I was shown this war going on. Not to stop anything for I can’t. But to share.
If the airforce doesn’t realize the role of the army, and if the army doesn’t realize the role of the airforce, we can start firing on each other. And there are other examples there too, as in the roles of honorable and dishonorable vessels of which I suspect you know about. As I said, I cannot stop a war. Don’t feel it is my job to do but God’s as He sees fit. But I can do what I feel called to do as He may connect me, and cross over. Isn’t easy to cross over. I’ve done it before and it can be a lonely road in the sense of being in a place where others have a different view and going at it alone, as Jesus did in what I saw. But Jesus will travel with us. We just need to remain in Him. I’ve made mistakes there too. Thank God for his wonderful grace.
He does though want us all found in Him so that we can all eventually be honorable vessels for his overall purposes, or corporate goal.
And maybe most aren’t being shown war. Some may be being shown the hungry and thirsty and other things like that. This is what I am being shown and am looking to continue in what I feel called to do. Some of us may be called more to warfare, others more to feed the hungry and thirsty, and others may just be called to things like being good parents to their children that will continue the race as we pass the batton to them. And even as we may all be called to each role to a degree, we also have our main call to, as the disciples did. Some called to the Jews and some to the Gentiles and more.
Anyway, maybe I am in the wrong place. Yet I will take it a daily basis, until He shows me otherwise. And you all can do the same thing. Don’t take my word for it.
So in the meantime if I am allowed to stay (and you don’t have to let me), as I have time I can share some things I have been given that may help us all. And I hope to continue to learn too. And I will share not to convince anyone of anything or stop anything of my own accord. I do believe God will allow our humanity to play out for his greater purposes and at times he will allow war to continue for his greater purposes of getting us rooted in Jesus.
Even so, as I feel called to cross over, I can do just that and share what He has given me and then allow Him to grow the seed.
Don’t call the white coats yet (hee, hee). At one time I was growing concerned of the same thing but God did show me if I continued to go that route I would find myself Spiritually handicapped. So yes, I can be weird at times and such, maybe even somewhat crazy in others eyes (kinda fun too), but do know I understand the importance of keeping a clean heart before the Lord. God is not condemning us but the Holy Spirit doesn’t flow in dirty waters. It isn’t in His nature. So, will be looking to avoid that contamination. I think I probably have ejected myself at times too early due to my own fears in regards my insecurities.
Love in Him,
Jo
Should have mentioned. Jesus was talking to a group to cross over. I don’t think we are all called to that, but certain people. He walked alone as those in the group were concerned over the war. I don’t want to leave Him walking alone.
Yes, our humanity does play a role…. We are totally depraved… Our role is to humble ourselves and submit to Him… Wholly, and in turn live holy lives.
My point in regard to the comments BASED ON THE ARTICLE is that it cannot be about us praying to get more for us. It must be about us praying to get more of Him, and in turn live more like Him. Romans 12 is an excellent passage for this thought.
To clarify and condense: NOT man-centered, but God-centered theology/orthodoxy and life/orthopraxy. (If we allow our finite minds and hearts to dictate what the “whole” of the gospel is, then we lose the truth of the infinite wisdom and power of God and His eternal plan for “His whole” gospel).
I see where you are coming from Guy. God gave me leeway there until I was ready to totally commit to Him. But my heart was His, even as I needed to remain alert to his checks there. Sometimes the Lord will allow you to get what you want, and when you do you will find that what you really want is Him.
The parable of the prodigal son speaks of this. They were both sons. One decided to go at it his way, the other decided to stay and work for his father. So the father lets the one son go to squander his inheritance in the world and when he ended up with the pigs, He realized it was time to go home to Daddy. Thought he’d go home just as a servant, but the father took him in with open arms still as a son.
Now the other son felt that this was all unfair because he stayed working for his father.
But it wasn’t about them and what they did. It was about the goodness of their father and his great love for both.
Saying that, our actions will effect us and others until we have grown up in Christ. So, God will discipline for our sakes and others. We wouldn’t think God was the bad guy if we could actually understand how our actions do effect others. But if all want it and are willing participants, He will allow it too, all depending what He is looking to do.
Here is something that may help. I wrote this a couple years ago and felt the Lord stressing it again back in June. Recently I added a paragraph to it and I will put that in parenthesis.
The Progressive Journey
I often view this journey as a progression from ME to YOU to WE.
The ME stage appears to be ok for an infant. They need attention, nourishment, and much milk. Our Heavenly Father makes more allowances for ME in the infancy stage.
As we progress we move from ME to YOU. This stage appears to speak of discipleship. It requires denying ourselves picking up our cross and following Jesus. At this stage we are partaking of more solid food.
The progression from YOU to WE appears to require presenting ourselves a living sacrifice so that the Lord can work through us to effect humanity. The partaking of His life. I can get from ME to YOU but I cannot get from YOU to WE without you. Yet I have no control over you, nor should I look to exercise control. But I can present myself a living sacrifice for the Lord to work through ME to effect YOU and we can then make up WE. As others join, we will make up the FULL STATURE OF CHRIST. At this third stage we have been equipped to partake of meat.
I am often grieved when I see a brother or sister in the Lord look down on a family member that is going through difficulty and they appear to make hasty conclusions as to what their issue and remedy is. The next time we are tempted to go that route may we consider that our brethren may be more equipped than us and is shedding his blood for our benefit.
This was something the Apostle Paul seemed to be going through as it appeared that there were others looking down on him. Yet as we pass through the winepress in life our loving Father will turn our crushed grapes into wine.
“Due to some observations I have made, this portion in green was added on 11-16-09. I am one that likes to see both sides of the fence and then encourage others to move to higher ground in Jesus. Of late I have also become more aware of the other side and how those that have progressed to solids and meat can start looking down on those on milk. We all should eventually continue progressing in our journeys in Jesus. Beside that should be the understanding that the Lord extends much grace to us as we grow up in him. He equips us for more solid foods and meat as He sees fit and looks to engage us in the process of growth. May we remember how graciously He has dealt with us and as such, extend the same to our fellowman.”
Yes, spiritual maturity appears to progress from the smaller picture of me, to the larger picture of there is the whole of humanity at the Lord’s heart. May we remember this as we are faced with the challenges in life and edify each other in love and comfort.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anyway, I think this is a nice place and not sure what the goal is. If it is to eventually lead to Jesus and your serious about it, I hope you have some trusted people, Spiritually mature, that can pop in and help from time to time. Maybe a pastor you all trust and such. Not those that are looking to take over, but others that can help guide you all without blocking the Light of Jesus.
Did you see those kids in that video. Beautiful. I wouldn’t look to interfere with what the Lord is doing there. On the contrary, I am enjoying their music and feel like I am going along for the ride. Their music is awesome. Not that they write it all but they pick some beautiful songs. Beautiful with beautiful messages and their passion for the Lord is wonderful. But they, like all of us to a degree, need others to help us. Not take the place of the Lord in our lives but He does use us as his hands and feet to help. If we all had it all in our present state, we would probably walking around with 20 thorns in our flesh just to remain humble. We are parts, He’s the whole.
Anyway, I saw a baby growing fast. I went to help with it but when I got closer I realized it was bigger than when I first saw it. I was then like, ‘Oh, this baby is going to be heavy.’ So I backed up. It grew even more. I was like, ‘Wow, its big for a baby.’ But it was still a baby…
You do understand I am not saying that IF IT SPEAKS OF THIS PLACE that everyone here is a Spiritual infant. No. I am sure there are a good deal of Spiritually mature people here. Overall though it still appears to be in an infancy stage growing fast, but still a baby.
Don’t know how long I will be around. I got other things going on and just looking to stay in tune with the Lord. I would like to help where I can from time to time and learn and continuing growing too. i can understand my reaction in being hesitant to help in the beginning because I had quite a bit going on, on this end too. Just some things you all may want to prayerfully consider.
God will give more leeway for infants, but if it starts to go the wrong direction He will intervene.
Ok, now for real unless I the Lord personally calls me back in (and not saying He originally called me in, think He’s leaving it up to me to decide it I want to help, as I am allowed to too), I do need to take a break with the holidays and need to spend more time with family. Been online too much lately. So I am going to leave you all with a song. This song that I love kinda reflect what I was speaking about with the call. I’ve always loved this song for the tune and especially the voices. I just read the lyrics in English today. It fits with what I saw with Jesus crossing over, and some other things. I kid you not and thinking this may be no accident that I looked up the lyrics in English today.
I love this. Feel like I got an early Christmas present from above.
Below will be the link. Below that will be the lyrics in English. Beyond changing a few words here and there, I would consider myself singing Sarah’s lyrics and Jesus singing Andrea’s lyrics. Hope you all enjoy it and maybe some will hear a similar call. The other side can use cross overs too. I don’t think we are all called to that, but I do believe some. God knows.
So for now, God willing until after the holidays, time to say goodbye.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbN0g8-zbdY
Time to say goodbye – Andrea Bocelli and Sarah Brightman
Sarah:
When I’m alone I dream of the horizon and words fail me.
There is no light in a room where there is no sun
and there is no sun if you’re not here with me, with me.
From every window unfurls my heart the heart that you have won.
Into me you’ve poured the light,
the light that you found by the side of the road.
Time to say goodbye.
Places that I’ve never seen or experienced with you.
Now I shall, I’ll sail with you upon ships across the seas,
seas that exist no more,
it’s time to say goodbye.
Andrea:
When you’re far away I dream of the horizon and words fail me.
And of course I know that you’re with me, with me.
You, my moon, you are with me.
My sun, you’re here with me with me, with me, with me.
Time to say goodbye.
Places that I’ve never seen or experienced with you.
Now I shall, I’ll sail with you upon ships across the seas,
seas that exist no more,
Both:
I’ll revive them with you.
I’ll go with you upon ships across the seas,
seas that exist no more,
I’ll revive them with you.
I’ll go with you.
You and me.
It seems to me that a comment shouldn’t have a longer word count than the original post.
LOL! Welcome to my world.
Oh I hear ya. I do. I like to say thank God He also gave me a sense of humor because it is helpful to laugh at oneself.
Just something that may help you see where I am coming from (and I will look to reciprocate).
God gives me help too because I need it. I have my doubts that at times plague me and He helps me along by giving me things to confirm what I sense at a deeper level.
This dream I felt was from Him to help me understand how He can use my attention to detail.
Sidenote: Details should never overshadow the main message and the simplicity in Christ. They should complement it.
In this dream I found myself in Honduras where my friend is a missionary. I’ve never been there but we have both moderated on the same online ministry, although in different sections of it. Anyway, she was taking seeds from one side of a field and transferring them to another. I ASKED HER IF I COULD HELP. She said yes. So I took the pale full of seeds to the other side of the field and began to lay them on the ground with the others she had there. She came by and mentioned something I was doing wrong. Something about how I was spreading them and how it should be done. So I listened and did as she showed me. Don’t think it was something real big. Appeared to be a minor thing. Anyway, I noticed she had on these shoes that had spikes on the bottom. I sensed they were for cultivating the ground. Now I didn’t have those types of shoes there. I had to use my hands in spreading the seeds. And as I continued working I noticed this clump of seeds all packed together and I went up to it and started to break it up with my hands. As I did the seeds began to fall separately, by themselves to the ground. It was like they were being swept by the wind too.
It was very neat to watch. I know this happens for real too. I mean at times I pray and start to take something apart for I feel that if it was broken down into smaller pieces, it could help with seeing it clearer. And there are those wonderful times when I do feel the Lord’s Spirit kicking in and I myself am a wonderful beneficiary. Sometimes the Lord shows me if others are being blessed too. Sometimes He doesn’t. Whether that is because they are not, dunno. I know when I am as I benefit and learn from it too.
And other times He may not be in it at that moment. I can usually tell those times. I may try and press through the flesh but if it ain’t coming, I know I shouldn’t push it. I can put it aside for that time.
Kinda why I am here now. Began working on a piece and struggling with the closing. So, giving it a rest for now.
So why did I share all this. I wanted to show the variety in giftings and portions again (along with letting you know where I am coming from, and will look to reciprocate). Think it is inline with some of the conversation regarding the article. As we each do our part, the Lord can use our equipping for where ever we are, to do his work.
Anyway, thought of ignoring this post. NOT THAT THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH IT. Just thought it may come across as nit picky if I responded. But as I check my heart I can say that I truly do feel I am coning from again looking to share how portions and variety work. So sad to me how we can miss that.
And do know I got nothing wrong with anyone overseeing this place to tell me to be quiet or whatever else. Just be nice about it because God knows my heart and I am not looking to hurt anyone, just looking to share and help where I can. Don’t have to accept it. But if you do, you may find yourself benefitting. God shares some wonderful things with me, as He does with others too. I don’t feel what He shares with me solely applies to me. But as He shares it with me and I come to understand them I can then share with others and hopefully help them understand some things that may be going on with them, or at least how some things can work.
Same as I have benefitted from my travels into various groups. I just get grieved when they get sidetracked away from the focus on our Lord and remaining in Higher Ground in Him. At times we think we have gone to higher ground in Jesus when but all we really did was cross the street into the other neighborhood. It may look different and the cause more noble, but at heart if we haven’t gone higher in Jesus, it is more of the same. I personally feel it can even be worse to a degree as from there we can start looking down on our neighbors and even tossing stones at them.
Anyway, I’m not always right in my decisions and miss it too so do feel free to let me know. Not that I may agree but I can respect others homes and children, even if at times I may want to say, “please put a diaper on that baby.” But hey, been there done that too.
Thanks for sharing. I do appreciate it and do understand where you are coming from. Some people like my singing and attention to details and benefit from it. Some don’t. It’s all ok. We just don’t want to assume that because we may not be others aren’t. That goes for me too.
Love in Him,
Jo
I’ll give you a pat on the back just for the sheer effort in this post.