Josh McDowell Prayed 4 Me 2 Day
Blog, Featured — By Jordan Green on December 22, 2009 at 12:00 amThe first article we ran on this new site…or one of the first, anyway…was a diary of this years International Christian Retail Show in Denver.
The opening speaker at this year’s convention was Josh McDowell. I didn’t know who Josh McDowell was at the time, but I wasn’t impressed with his speech, and I said so in my article. You can read exactly what I said here. I also included a photo of Mr. McDowell pointing at an audience, along with the caption, “According to Josh McDowell, everything is your fault.”
It was a little snarky, I suppose. I blame Dan Gibson. His unique blend of hyper-intelligent sarcasm is quite infectious. I will say much of Mr. McDowell’s speech angered me, and I wasn’t looking for reasons to be angry. It struck me as encapsulating much of what was wrong with how Baby Boomer Christians view younger believers. I have no idea whether Mr. McDowell read what I wrote about him, and I haven’t thought much about it since.
You can imagine my surprise then, at an odd piece of mail I received on Friday, coincidentally at the same time Dan and his family were visiting from Tucson: a Delta Airlines baggage tag, in an envelope, with a note on it, from Josh McDowell.
“Jordan; Prayed 4. U. 2. day. Josh”
First off, all snark aside, how nice is that? Thanks for praying for me, Josh! I should be praying for you, too!
But come on now…isn’t this kind of strange? My home address is not listed on Burnside. Maybe I wrote it down somewhere during the conference? And why a Delta Airlines baggage tag? And why the periods after the numbers and letters? And why just numbers and letters? Am I suppose to LOL!?! And why me? Did he read my article? Is this a subtle, Hey, I’m watching you, guy? An I’ve forgiven you for comparing me to an old man with a cane? Or is it just a case of Send these baggage tags I signed out to everyone on this mailing list, please?
Then, the intrepid journalism (okay, it was a Google search of “Jordan Green Josh McDowell”) of Dan Gibson brought a new twist to the story: an article on “The power of prayer” by…JORDAN GREEN. That’s right, there’s another Christian writer named Jordan Green.
I can’t prove to you fully that this new Jordan Green is not me. But I can show you an excerpt of his article, Is Christianity dying out?
Is Christianity dying in America? Every time I turn my TV on, it’s filled with poison and self-glorifying trash. Newspaper articles and polls indicate a decline in professing Christians. Magazines and books of all kinds mock Jesus and His followers. At first glance, it’s seemingly obvious that the U. S. is exchanging its Christian roots for an atheistic future.
Hey, he must watch Always Sunny in Philadelphia just like me! Isn’t that show hilarious, Jordan?
Anyway, did Josh McDowell think I was this brash young upstart, who describes himself as “Obsessed. Addicted. Extremist. Somewhat accurate, but not quite. The labels attached to this writer are slightly shy of the mark. This author’s craft is a fanatical zealot with a lust for writing, sports, and Jesus.”?
In all seriousness, thanks for the note, Mr. McDowell. How about we start an email exchange and hash out this whole “91% of young Christians don’t believe in Absolute Truth” thing? You know where to find me…
26 Comments
Maybe he just wanted you to know that he was praying for U2, what with Bono’s swearing, drinking, and all . . .
BTW, I think I like the other Jordan better. You don’t write about poison enough. Except maybe for some of your beer articles.
After I left my cute lil’ comment above, something simmered into a boil. Had to come back. I’d shut down my laptop and brushed my teeth, even.
McD had this scare-video about sex that made the youth group circuit in the 80′s. He famously said that if you have sex before you’re married, you’ll think about your previous partners while having sex with your spouse. You have no idea how many times I’ve had to take the air out of that one down at my day job.
I also can’t stand the passive-aggressive use of “I’m praying for you.” While it’s always great to have someone praying for you, we all know that it’s sometimes said to mean “I’m so holy and disciplined that I’m praying for your sorry ass instead of giving you the beat-down you deserve.” If this chicken-scratch was meant for you instead of the other dude, McD would have exhibited far more integrity by saying, “What the hell, Green? Let’s talk and hash this out mano-y-mano.” I don’t recall Jesus or the prophets ever exiting with “I’ll be praying for you” and a smirk. But maybe that’s because they didn’t have Twitter-speak and baggage tags.
God bless you, Steve.
JMD
Steve, can you elaborate on this?
“He famously said that if you have sex before you’re married, you’ll think about your previous partners while having sex with your spouse. You have no idea how many times I’ve had to take the air out of that one down at my day job.”
Serious question.
For the record, I was a virgin when I got married, but I did find that the fooling around with previous girlfriends did affect my thought life, and my marriage, in a negative way, and things weren’t really right until several years into the marriage. Depending on how Josh McD actually worded what you said he said, I’d say he was probably right on.
I think there’s a middle ground here.
It seems like Steve is more concerned about the level of guilt, and the imagery that sort of thought evokes. It’s not as if, when I’m “having relations” with my wife, all my ex-girlfriends faces start flashing in front of my eyes. It’s that sort of thing that perpetuates shame and blinds us to grace.
On the other hand, I think James is right that we experience the consequences of our past transgressions.
It’s not as if it’s one or the other.
Here’s what I mean:
The way premarital sex gets treated as an either-or proposition can actually interfere with sexual purity. If someone feels broken beyond repair after having sex, it creates a sense of hopelessness, a feeling of being beyond redemption. We try so hard to scare kids out of having premarital sex that, if they do, they feel they’ve done something that has damaged them permanently. Taken to its logical conclusion, it’s easy to see why one might just give up and continue having sex. If I feel like my sex life with my future spouse is doomed because I’ve had sex in the past, I might despair of working toward/waiting for something better.
Of course behavior in past relationships CAN influence future relationships. That doesn’t mean it always does or that healing is impossible. As a Christian and a psychologist, it’s my job to lead people toward hope and redemption. If people feel like damaged goods, that becomes a lot harder.
And, in general, there’s no evidence supporting McD’s claim. We think about the person we’re having sex with. Yes, past mistakes can mess things up, but the good news is that they usually don’t. I agree with Jordan that there is a very firm middle ground, but, historically, Christians have excelled at over-emphasizing the dark side. I prefer to highlight that as the healing, renewing power of love instead of relying on scare tactics that don’t really work anyway.
So Steve, do you oppose any adult sharing with youngsters any reasons at all why they ought to abstain?
and so arrives the hyperbole train…
Steve,
You are so right. That is exactly what happened to me in college. I screwed up (pun intended) with my then-fiance, since, as he said, “in my eye’s your already my wife” and after the relationship crumbled, and I subsequently confessed to my mother, she bascially told me I had ruined my life, was damaged goods, no Christian man would ever want me, and cried as if I had told her I had just killed my little sister. In her defense both she and my father were virgins when they got married, and she’s since apologized for her reaction but still, it impacted me, as did every sermon/youth group lesson I’d ever heard about abstinence.
Since I figured she (and the church, which re-affirmed that belief) was right, and I was “ruined”, I tried to treat sex like it was no big deal for a while, and used it as a means to affirm my self-esteem, which obviously backfired.
God’s healed me since from those lies, and now, when(to answer James question) I interact with youth and the topic of sex comes up I’m quick to be honest with them about my own trangressions (because at the time, I was sure I was the only Christian, ever, who had had pre-marital sex) and let them know that if they screw up their lives are NOT over, they are NOT damaged goods, and someday someone will definitley still want them.
Focusing on abstinence and making it this huge big deal, does nothing but set kids up for failure. Telling kids not to do something because it’s “wrong” DOES NOT WORK. It you want kids to abstain (which, yes, is the right thing to do) you have to teach them why they should; because they have value in more than their sexuality, sex is a gift that should be given only with real committment, it has consequences, and it has emotional ramifactions. But above all else, it should be treated like any other sin, not held up as this great litmus test for faith. Like anyhting else, if you mess up you are forgiven, it’s not the end of the world.
I’ve never rec’d a luggage tag in the mail or a note from Josh McDowell but Steve Brown always signs his notes to me: I prayed for you today. But then he adds: Don’t screw it up.
It’s kind of creepy, how well Steve knows me and my propensity towards trouble.
Honestly, I think you guys are being too hard on Josh. I have read some of his stuff. I agree with some of it, but not all of it. Just like any other writer.
Honestly, I see so much here about how we shouldn’t be judgmental, but I see a lot of folks here judging those who don’t think like them.
I don’t really have a problem with Josh McDowell…I genuinely thought the note was nice, though I agree with Steve that it might be passive aggressive if he actually knows who I am and read the article (I don’t think he does).
Basically, my issue with that particular speech had to do with three things:
1) He made claims about young Christians that are either patently false, or based on him not asking the right questions, or he is not listening to the answer. If he’s going to be brought in as an “expert” on Christians my age, then makes blanket statements I could easily poke holes in, maybe he’s not the expert people think he is.
2) He made fun of non-profits.
3) He blamed media and sources outside the Church for shifts in young Christian thinking, and, in doing so, refuses to acknowledge the problems of the American Boomer Christians.
I’m sure he’s a good guy, and I honestly would relish the opportunity to interview him on some of these subjects…maybe things would be clarified. As-is, I left that speech thinking, “That guy has no idea what he’s talking about.”
I wasn’t aware of the speech’s contents, so thanks.
As for the sex before marriage thing, I would think it is incumbent upon teachers/parents, etc. to share with young people that they are better off not having sex before marriage. I think that point alone is pretty indisputable; older wiser people should share their wisdom with younger ones.
But telling them “don’t do it” it never going to be enough. You have to tell them why. For some kids, “Because I said so” might work, but probably not the majority. So what is one in that position to do? He gives reasons. And I would say that, the way Steve summarized him, Josh Mcd gave one of many valid reasons. That’s why I asked for elaboration.
Emily,
Thanks for sharing your story. I am SO sorry you had to experience that.
JamesW,
You can pick up any one of my books and read plenty of reasons to abstain from sex before marriage, so obviously think we should share reasons to abstain with people. My point, as I said, is that we’re too good at that. It’s not that McD shouldn’t have said anything, it’s that he made a damning generalization that just isn’t true most of the time.
Jordan,
Sorry for bringing up sex and derailing your article.
Steve, if you are speaking to a group of people, you are going to, by definition, speak in general terms.
Emily, the story you tell is a great example of how it should not have been handled. I’m sorry you had to go through that. Nobody should ever refer to anyone as damaged goods, unless it’s to point out that all mankind is damaged goods, which is why we need a Savior.
I don’t know if I get this whole article but that’s ok because I’m not always real swift. I don’t get some things I read. Guess I probably had to read the first one.
First let me say re, the conversation, I think if we went into a place looking for error we would find it. Who of us has it all right? Not saying at all the author of this article went in with that mentality, just saying. I’m a detailed gal and have been an investigator and auditor by trade (though I do more the latter now as I was burnt out on the other side of it). I can spot an error a mile away. Part of what my job entails and have been trained to do. Whether I am always right is another story. Considering I am a detailed gal I know that if I don’t prioritize I can overwhelm others with what I see and communicate. So, I know the foundation is most important and then we can start tweeking. And people need that encouragement too as hearing all negative can be quite discouraging so I like to point out the wonderful things too.
I have also been frustrated in the past with others in my natural trade, and in the body of Christ, seeing me as the enemy. We can all run the wrong way with it but overall I feel I am not. It’s a dirty job at times but I am part of the group. God has shown me many valuable things through my natural work experience. And I also sometimes get angry and impatient with new people that don’t see me as part of the group. When I do the Lord has a way of reminding me I am no better than anyone else of myself (only good in Him). Sometimes another auditor will come along side me and will start pointing out my errors and I feel those similar feelings others do for me. But there is a difference. Me being in that position and understanding the very real challenges with it, I can see it from the auditor’s perspective and thank them for their valuable info instead of giving them the cold shoulder, a hard time, and treating them like the enemy.
I have also learned that workers will tend to pick up management’s mentality towards me. If management doesn’t see me as part of the group and shares that attitude, whether verbally or by attitude, less mature workers can follow suit. And not that I am perfect myself. It is always wonderful to be working for someone that understands that.
Just some lessons from the workplace that may find a home here. I’m not speaking just to speak of me but that is all I can truly give, what I have received at a deeper level whether by Spiritual impartation, walking out my humanity, or a combo.
And I don’t see anything wrong with voices what we see as an error. My problem is more regarding judging things of the heart on our own. And God can reveal that, just wonder how willing He is if we ourselves are not connected to his heart on it. And again, not saying anyone is doing that. Just discussing my pet peeve there.
I also feel that even though we as a body have communicated the message of the gospel poorly at times, that it would be wrong to put all the blame on that. Back in the garden of Eden when man and woman fell, they became self-conscience and hid in fear and appears there was shame too. God did not give them poor message of the gospel. He just told them not to eat of that other tree or they would die. And they did spiritually to Him. Man became self-conscience instead of God-conscience and feared entere in and they hid…
It helps me to remember that the problem is not solely an error with how the message is presented. It is a human condition problem. Even those that are not brought up with hearing much of God suffer from fear, guilt and shame. But yes, we have made a mess of things with how we have presented the message. And I been there and done that too.
Thanks for sharing.
Love in Him,
Jo
Was reading this over again and was thinking, ‘What the heck was I going on about there with my job.’ Then I remembered, ‘Oh yeah, just trying to show a personal side of seeing errors, corrective communication, and some lessons I have learned.’
I really like that word “And” too. And, and, and, and, and,…wait…and.
Don’t you all have an edit button? What’s up with that? What if I say something embarassing and want to edit?
Last but not least, you all are going to fry so you had better repent!
And I am the expert there and all this talk of sex is making me feel dirty…and guilty so shut up. And…don’t shoot the messenger!
Over and out…and.
Love in Him,
Jo
Karen, I think you came out looking like a saint on this one…and…those prayers are working already. I’m still praying for you too. Don’t worry about me because I’m perfect.
I see Mother Theresa in the making.
Are you ready to crown Joel Osteen saint of the year yet? I have some great ideas. Let me know. You can email me at:
http://www.Joel‘sTheMan.com
Just having some fun. Ok, gotta go now. Try not to miss me too much.
A gal can dream, can’t she?
Oh, hey, read the article again and think I am ready to comment more on the article. I know, you are so delighted. Aww shucks (blush).
I’ll start with this other Jordan Green’s comment…and…(ok, now it’s getting old but nice to see Jordan from the article (are you as confused as I am? Jordan, Jordan) has the same problem. Didn’t spot that before.
I wonder sometimes when people speak of not looking foolish to the world because the bible says those in the faith in Jesus are not of the world and will look foolish to the world. It also says God will destroy the wisdom of the world with what they view as foolish, that be Jesus and his way of the cross (life of self-sacrifice). Even so, God loves the people of the world which were created in his glorious image. That is the beauty of the gospel, herein is the love of God revealed, “while we were yet sinners” Christ died for us. It isn’t that we are good of ourselves, but that in all our wretchedness, God loves us so and paid such a dear price to draw us close to Him. At heart, I’ve also committed many crimes against my God, and humanity.
I like to say that the cross of Christ did not move me until I saw my wretchedness apart from Him…amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me…where sin abound, grace abound the more.
But yes, we make a mess of that message too.
I have no idea if there was some hidden message but “I myself” (speaking for me as I don’t look to conform others to what works for me but just share) try and let go of those things and just keep my heart before the Lord. But yes, I go there too yet when I realize I am there I sense for me it is generally unproductive and then can go negative if I continue.
But I know, you are just sharing Jordan, yet it kinda opens the door for me to elaborate on something else I have learned (being the opportunist that I am so I hopped on that train).
Did I hear yippee!
I like to ask myself, “Why am I doing what I am doing?” If it is motivated by the love of God and for people, then I feel that is a wonderful place. And if not, I can take it to the Lord.
I should talk about something I see on the other side at times that I don’t care for (because I am perfect and gives me an edge at seeing everyone else’s faults).
Sometimes I get the impression, with some, that unless your words are God inspired that you shouldn’t say anything, afterall, Jesus only spoke what He heard his Father say. Well, not to go negative on them personally with that (and don’t know what the Lord is saying to each personally and I get what they are saying and see truth in it too). I love them and many do believe in praying for others and feel it is sincere and beautiful…
Anywayzzz (that’s my new word, “anyway”), I don’t see anyone operating in the seven fold Spirit that Jesus did (but I do believe it is coming and Jesus said we would do greater things…) so for me and what I feel God often shows me, it is a matter of where my heart is. For instance, He communicates to me in dreams and visions at times, as He does with many and a good deal of what He shows me is the condition of my heart when I do something. Isn’t that what Jesus was often trying to get us to see, the heart of the matter being the matter of the heart.
For example, I have had several dreams with looking to help others and when it starts it may be about an issue with someone I am looking to help them with and as I go about it with the right heart, I may get a revelation on what the situation is or He starts giving something from me. We need his revelation to understand what is truly going on…I also know I see in part and they probably have a part I may not have been given so just look to share what I feel was revealed to me, then look to leave it between them and God. The book of James I see as a wonderful “rubber to road”, human relating book. He’s a hoot, isn’t he. A straight shooter. I think if he were around today and speaking in our iingo he may say, “Man, put your money where your mouth is, show me the money! You see a need, step up to the plate.”
There is also the other side of heart condition. I have told Him I always want the motivation of my heart right, to remain humble, and have invited Him to help me there. I sometimes see too the dark dude ahead and I know the Lord is warning me things are going negative heartwise for me (and maybe others too) and I need to stop. I may see the word “lust” and know He is telling me that what I am sharing or looking to do is not about his love and helping others but more about self-gratification on my part. I have been shown at times when I am communicating with others and my motivation at heart changes and it causes me not to see them properly.
For instance, one time I was talking to someone on the phone that I love dearly but I have felt hurt with how they see things and feel they see me (not that I have done that to her because I am perfect). Anywayzzz, she needed help with something and wanted my input with things she shared. We talked. That night I had a dream and I saw myself as I was when I talked to her, on the phone talking to her. From where I sat I have view of my back, glass sliding door into the backyard and I looked at the backyard (feel my backyard at times when significant in a dream can speak of looking at the past). I saw three monkeys out there and I then, as I was on the phone, began to go deaf, dumb, and blind.
To me this spoke of how I was fine when I started to talk to her but when the past began surfacing for me, that I began to filter things through me past associations with her and that was hindering me from being any use to her.
Another time with this same person I had a dream that we were sitting at a table and I was telling her about one of my dreams. She then gave me a cold response like she didn’t believe me and other things. In the dream for me my motivation no longer was about sharing what I felt I had to offer but I then began to talk and it was more about my reputation in that aspect. Believe I closed my eyes too and when I opened them I couldn’t see her well as things began to get dark. I mean I couldn’t see her.
I didn’t make too much of it but then I found myself in the exact sane position I dreamt with her. I was even talking of a dream and I kept pausing and such because I realized that what took place in my dream was actually ocurring just then. I mean same table and home and such. I was aware though that it was happening so I was able to take the message of the dream to heart.
Anywayz, valuable things I have learned.
I also love the diversity in the bible. Even when Jesus healed He often used different routes. Some He healed instantly, others He had them do something and as they did they received their healing. One He healed with two touches. Lazarus He let die first, but He said that it would work out for a great display of the glory of God. Seems to me the Lord through the bible is looking to point out that it isn’t in method and other surface stuff like that, but in the person of Jesus, God with us. To know Father as we are in Him. To be in Him. That is our home. Absolute truth is Jesus for God has said He is the Way, the Truth, the Life, and the Light. But not trying to convince anyone. Just sharing.
To put it simple without all the dressing (my specialty), the heart of the matter is the matter of the heart.
Did I do the derailing thing?
Happy New Year’s Everyone. I will be working when the New Year strikes but will make the best of it. I gotta get me some mace because drunks can be fun to a point, then it is like…will you please go to your room and get some sleep. Not that I would know anything about that
Love in Him,
Jo
No votes for Joel yet. Hmmm, I see I got my work cut out for me. Thank God for you all I got the time. I will save ya from pergatory yet.
How can anyone resist Ken and Barbie, so cute.
Well, I must say I have learned some new things while I’ve been here. Learned some new cuss words, learned that God doesn’t like his mama, and that X for Christ in Christmas is fashionable.
Guess I can let that stuff slide but I am drawing the line if you all tell me there is no Santa Clause.
Technically speaking, there was a Saint Nick.
Well, this was educational and fun.
Have to go now, need to go pray for Jordan, healing from and…itis.
Over and out…and.
Jo
Can you believe it! While I was praying for Jordan and I regarding our and-itis (healing cometh Jordan, I feel it), I had a revelation. Yes, I did. It is the spirit of AntiJoel at work. I knew it! Rats! You think mace works on spirits too.
Ok, now if you want to tell me to shut up and give me the boot, I understand. Just be nice about it or I will cry (that lines gotten me out of hot water before).
Something about the kitchen and heat, oh, I don’t remember. I have selective memory.
Yet be forewarned, I have a line for getting the boot too, “Que, me no speakke Englesh?”
Does anyone understand what’s going on here?
No. With all respect to Jo, I don’t think anyone ever understands any of her posts. Maybe if they were shorter, there were one, not four of them, and she tried to make them have some sense of direction?
Just sharing and adding some laughs. No like my humor? I think I’m funny but not everyone agrees. Would it have been funnier if I made fun of Joel?
I was kidding. Thought this was a place for kidding too.
Thanks for the input. I will keep it in mind. Hard to do short but will see what I can do (and less).
Thanks again,
Jo
Did want to say thanks though because I got my humor back. Lost it for about a month and really missed it so know you did a good deed anyway.
Love in Him,
Jo