The Geologist from Hell
Featured, Spirit in the Material World — By Stephen Simpson on January 15, 2010 at 7:24 amHere’s why there was an horrific earthquake in Haiti: It sits on an unstable fault line between two tectonic plates, just like the one a few miles away from where I sit in Southern California. The awful, simple truth is that the beautiful island of Hispaniola rests on a piece of the planet that’s more fragile than most.
But that’s not what Pat Robertson thinks. As he is wont to do, Robertson con
cocted a delusional, histrionic load of apocalyptic horse-shit to explain why the least of these in Haiti deserved a devastating earthquake. Some nonsense about them making a pact with the Devil to gain independence from France. It doesn’t deserve the attention it’s already received, and I only bring it up now to say this: I’m done with idiots who do this to the Christ and His Church. To paraphrase The Dixie Chicks, I’m done playing nice.
We can no longer tolerate this sort of reckless buffoonery. I’m not talking about people whose version of Christianity makes no sense to me. I’m not referring to people who believe the earth is ten minutes old and that carbon-dating is one of Satan’s tricks. I don’t even mean these geniuses who think the universe revolves around the earth. I’m talking about unrestrained, anti-intellecutal cruelty. I do not want to share the name “Christian” with someone who sins so recklessly and flagrantly against thousands of suffering people on national television.
It’s time for moderate to liberal Evangelicals get angry out loud. We are called to love, but we are also called to justice. We are called to discernment. I am tired of people telling me not to be judgmental when I decry the presence of evil in the Body of Christ. Just once, I’d like to toss the disclaimer about this being my opinion and respecting everyone’s perspective, etc. That’s usually appropriate, but not this time. I’m right about this and Pat Robertson is wrong. I am a sinner saved by grace, but my anger is righteous.
Pat Robertson is blocking many people’s view of Christ. Perhaps the best thing would be to roll my eyes and ignore it. That’s often the counsel of those with more wisdom and restraint. They’re right most of the time. This time, however, someone need to tell the world that Christians — including the most conservative Evangelicals — think Pat Robertson is a jerk and an idiot and we’d shut him up if we could. I don’t want them to be polite about it either. No acknowledgement that he’s our brother, we still love him, or that we disagree respectfully. Just a loud, bold-faced message that he’s wrong and we don’t like him.
My little rant isn’t good enough. We need someone with a microphone as big as Robertson’s. Someone like Rick Warren. I’d settle for Joel Olsteen or even Creflo Dollar if we can’t find anyone else. The world won’t listen to me.
But if you happen to be listening Pat, shut up.
More importantly, may God keep Haiti in our hearts and shower upon them miracles mightier than any earthquake.
42 Comments
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you for your spot-on assessment of PR…even Jon Stewart on the Daily Show can (and did last evening) cite more LOVING and MERCIFUL messages from the Big Book….why can’t Pat? He is an unkind, unloving, unjust man. I abhor the idea that the secular world may view me in the same light as he is viewed, with the label of Christian on us.
Thank you for the honesty. I’ve been defending Christianity (I’m Jewish) the past couple days from people who wanted to use Robertson as an example of anything other than facist-Pentecostal horseshit.
Thank you for sharing our ire.
And so many 50-somethings and above are still shaking their heads at the Emergent Movement, wondering why all those young people are so angry and disillusioned with the Church. It’s because of jackasses like this that I hesitate even to say I’m a Christian. Because if Robertson and his ilk are to remain the recognized leaders of American Christianity, I’d rather just be called something else.
Come on Steve. Slamming Robertson is like shooting fish in a barrel.
I’m not even going to comment about Pat. But I will say the criticism of his remarks–not just here, but all over the place the last 2 or 3 days–does irritate me because of the inconsistency.
You mention that the moderate and liberal Christians need to speak up. For one thing, that is who has been speaking up. Everyone is denouncing Robertson, and I’d suggest he’s the most hated man in America right now. I am not sure how much more speaking up you want.
But what bothers me about your singling out the moderates and liberals is that there is an an implication that conservatives think this way, too.
For the record, people on the Left say outrageous things and are not only not criticized, but often embraced.
To give examples, it’s only fair to stick to the subject: blaming
supernatural forces for calamity, poverty, etc.
When Sheryl Crow spoke at an anti-war rally just before the Iraq invasion, she warned that a war in Iraq would lead to “karmic retribution”. She was quoted in various news sources and on the evening news by reporters who actually seemed to take her seriously. I couldn’t have read her words out loud with a straight face to save my life, but the MSM had no problem with it. And I sure didn’t see any comments about the ridiculousness of her stance on forums, newsgroups, or blogs.
More recently, and more relevant to Haiti and the Robertson comments, Danny Glover said that, because we didn’t appease Gaia, the earth goddess, in the climate change summit last month in Norway, Gaia has retaliated with this earthquake. You can hear it yourself at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPzEhWN6bP0
So my question isn’t “why is everyone criticizing Pat Robertson?”. It’s “of those who make these statements, why do we let some of them slide?”
I realize that one possible answer is that Pat is a religious leader, and has influence on many followers. But I’d argue that in 21st-Century America, entertainers have as much influence over a larger number of people.
JamesW your link didn’t go to the youtube video you intended. Unless Danny Glover is a pale, chubby emo-boy.
James,
You touched on it briefly, but there is a HUGE difference in how angry I get at stupid celebrities who shoot their mouths off about things they don’t know about (Sharon Stone) than religious leaders who are supposedly representing, with their crass and heartless statements, me.
Celebrities do not represent any certain group of people, other than celebrities. People don’t look at Danny Glover and go, “Well, all black men must believe in the goddess Gaia” or look at the Dixie Chicks and assume all country singers hate George W. Bush. Celebrities (except I guess scientoligists) are seen as individuals, representing themselves.
However, Christian leaders, like Pat Robertson, the late Jerry Falwell, and say, Rick Warren are different because to many non-Christians they DO represent what ALL Christians might think. Christians are supposed to have the same beliefs, so when vocal, outspoken leaders in the public eye say stuff like, “9/11 was the fault of the gays” it DOES make the rest of us look bad.
That’s why I get pissed off, and why I had no problem with this article. On a side note, I thought Donald Miller’s response on his blog was just as moving and valid, even though it was a total polar opposite reaction.
Larry, thanks for catching that. Someone had emailed me that video clip of the guy looking for a girlfriend, and it’s funny. My apologies to anyone who played it out loud, because it’s bad some words not fit for work or kids.
Here’s the Danny Glover thing: http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/pact_with_gaia/
Emily, your point about Pat representing Christians, in the mind of many who are not Christians is a valid one for why someone should speak out about him. But it doesn’t answer why we leave the other ridiculous explanations alone and never expose them for the nonsense they are.
As to your argument about geology, are you arguing that nothing that happens with weather, quakes has anything to do with God? Ever? Do you think He has the power to override scientific laws to accomplish His purposes?
If so, you’ll need to rip a lot of pages out of your bible. Me, I’m going with the idea that, somehow, some way, God did bring a flood, and the ground did shake when Jesus died, and water did get turned into wine, and a paralytic really did start walking, and Jesus really did rebuke a storm. But that’s just me.
By the way, when I was part of the scientific academic community, I saw as much intellectual dishonesty and bending data to achieve the desired results to further an agenda, and to support presuppositions, as you have seen in the writings of the flat-earth folks you mention above.
For the record, I’m not a young-earth guy. I have as much of a problem with Answers in Genesis as you do. But that’s not the point.
Really? What do you expect? Thanks for giving PR more PR.
Of course Robertson’s comments are absurd. There’s no news there. Of course he’s fodder for the left and the emergent communities. What troubles me in the midst of all the accusations and conversations flying around is that so little discussion is unfolding around the question of why Haiti, in spite of literally tons of aid over the decades, remains trapped in poverty, while surrounding countries manage to get out. The reality is that it’s the lack of infrastructure that makes this event all the more horrific. And why isn’t there any infrastructure, even after all the years of aid pouring in?
Could it have something to do with world view? Perhaps; but we’re afraid to ask this question because we don’t want to be ‘cultural imperialists’. I can surely appreciate the desire to avoid pride, colonialism, and imperialism, but when we become ‘phobic’ about imposing our world view on others in need, we run the risk of continuing to throw money at a problem without ever seeing progress. World views need to change before 80% unemployment will change; before literacy will rise above 15%.
Yes – we need to keep Haiti in our hearts and prayers, and open our wallets sacrificially for the acute needs of the quake. But I pray that we’ll also ask the hard questions about how best to help our brothers and sisters there change their culture because God knows, as the rest of the world soon will, that there are elements in desperate need of change.
Good points Richard.
I think JamesW is right; as a culture we need to more consistently acknowledge reckless statements as reckless. Regarding Robertson, however, I wonder if we’re better off not trying to convince the world that Pat Robertson doesn’t speak for all evangelicals but rather trying to convince the 700 Club to take him off the air. Maybe e-mail something like the following to the powers that be there:
To Whom It May Concern:
In his recent comments regarding a devastating earthquake in Haiti, Pat Robertson made what I believe to be an erroneous and terribly harmful speculation that the earthquake represented divine justice for historic sins. This is not the first time that Mr. Robertson has spoken so recklessly from his bully pulpit on your program. With each successive comment he further weakens the voice of your program–but more than that, he further marginalizes the Christian witness from the world. I urge you, therefore, to remove Mr. Robertson permanently from your program, as an act of good faith for your audience and onlookers, and as a first step toward a more constructive evangelical conversation about the problem of evil and suffering.
Sincerely,
David A. Zimmerman
david.a.zimmerman@hotmail.com
Not to nitpick, nor defend Pat,but he didn’t say that the earthquake was a result of sin, voodoo, a curse or anything. He said that Haiti’s poverty was a result of said curse, and that poverty has led them to being unable to deal with the aftermath of the quake.
It may or may not be an important distinction to some, but I’m just sayin’.
“Here’s why there was an horrific earthquake in Haiti: It sits on an unstable fault line between two tectonic plates,”
That is why an earthquake happened. What made it horrific is millions of people lived in improperly built buildings here.
The reasons why they do so are many, and should be looked at carefully if the country is to recover. Certainly there are many internal flaws within the operation of the nation that need correction. – What this has to do with me is I have failed to reach out with my time and money to help those in Haiti and around the world.
I don’t want to rush out and condemn Pat Robertson. From what I’ve seen and read of him in the past his heart seems to be in the right place, or tries to be. I also think he has done more to help those in need around the world that I have, or probably anyone reading this has. I chalk up his timing and presentation to being out of touch. (Which nonetheless is still hurtful and needs correction.)
I fear the psychological knee jerk reaction towards focusing on his comments. It seems to be a way of diffusing our own guilt of responsibility in this. It also tends to make us fall into the same trap of judgmental behavior we aspire to grow out of.
I also think the broader discussion he raises (of God ‘blessing’ your life, or not for various reasons) is actually interesting to look at scripturally, and something most Christians do not have a good understanding of practically in their day to day lives. What I mean is we may immediately reject Pat Robertson’s comments as being off kilter upon hearing them, but in more subtle ways, are we carrying with us similar internal beliefs about the nature/actions of God and the good or bad things that happen to us? –Admittedly in relation to an immediate disaster this should be done from a distance when a clear head is possible.
The book of Revelation (found in the New Testament) says in the end times many more terrible disasters will happen. People will blame God, their governments, or say they are of no reason at all… Regardless the Bible says judgments on the earth are coming and God’s hand will be involved.
We live in a fallen world and must do all we can to show the love of Christ to others now. Immediately I am giving to the Red Cross to help Haiti. In the future I must give more of my time, energy, and resources to help other nations/peoples around the world who desperately need it.
Well said, Aaron. Thank you very much.
Richard,
Well said. Did you see David Brooks’ op-ed yesterday? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/opinion/15brooks.html?hp
It sounds like he is attempting to start the conversation you’re calling for.
Pat, I believe is loved by God, I’m sure it makes God deeply hurt by what Pat says and does but he still wishes to redeem him like everyone else.
Steve, rage on, bru…
Old PR has a craving for confrontation…seems to me best to scatter his dark words with light, diffuse ‘em, just like all the rescue workers are doing with their full-blown tireless mercy…
I gonna say something that will get me kicked out of here permanently, but needs to be said. I’ll issue a disclaimer, though, that I don’t endorse Pat’s Haiti statement, as he should have known how it was going to be taken. And it should go without saying that I don’t agree with past statements about hurricanes hitting a city because of gay parades and such.
But here goes:
When I watch and listen, it sounds to me like PR is being compassionate toward the Haitians, and wants to help them with immediate needs, and also in the long term. In the long term, he is hopeful they will repent of the sins of their fathers. He isn’t saying that the earthquake is the fault of the current Haitians, but specifically that it isn’t their fault, and it’s their ancestors who are to blame. He never says the quake was caused by God or sent by God or is a punishment from God. Not once.
While the allegations of how Haitians obtained independence may or may not be true in their case (I know nothing about the history of Haiti or if that “pact with the devil” really happened), the idea of one generation causing problems for their descendants, and that such generational stuff can be broken by repentance, is entirely biblical. The story of Josiah is the best example, but there are many others.
There. I said it. Go ahead and twist if you will. Give me my walking papers. Have Aaron say I just like to argue. Have Ryan tell me what a fool I am for believing the bible is real. Lump me in with Robertson (who I have many disagreements with). I stand by what I have said here.
Maybe you should check your facts about: Haiti’s curse, the devil, the Bible, Robertson’s comments & his work in Haiti & around the world before you proclaim to be speaking for a majority of Christians. Maybe you should pray more and listen to the Holy Spirit more…
If you have evidence that his story about Haiti is false, then produce the proof that he lied…if not, shut up…
If you feel that he is saying that God caused the earthquake to punish Haiti, then provide the actual video where he says exactly that…
If you feel that his lifetime of work is from the devil, then take it to God in prayer…by the way, the self-righteous, religious bigots said that about Jesus…read the Bible…
We are all born under a curse, via the devil, and he is our master until we accept Jesus and live under Him as our new Master, so what’s the point…
Maybe these earthquakes are just part of the signs that Jesus is coming sooner, than later AND Christians should stop attacking Christians…instead find ways to work together with Jesus and each other to bring love and compassion to the hurting, so they can SEE Jesus…let God deal with our imperfections…
Steve, et al….
What a mess. There are times I share your frustration especially when Pat and others so publicly make all of us Christians look like idiots.
In this case though I think you are wrong.
Pat’s biggest mistake was to make “any” kind of statement like that on the day after the disaster. It’s like the Samaritan who actually wants to help reaching down and saying…while helping…”you idiot…you brought this on yourself!” As a mother of teenagers, I’ve been given to such statements…but never when they are laying there bleeding!
The problem with this story though, is that everyone seems to be ignoring the facts.
Pat DID NOT say they deserved it. He gave a history of Haiti for the viewer to judge as they will. I for one started a cursory research of the history.
It blew me away.
1791
Aug 14, 1791 – On August 14, 1791, a group of houngans (“voodoo priests”), led by a former slave houngan named Boukman, made a pact at a place called Bois Caiman. The priests sacrificed a black pig in a voodoo ritual and drank its blood. Boukman asked Satan for his help in liberating Haiti. In exchange, the voodoo priests dedicated the country to Satan and swore to serve him. They signed no Bill of Rights. They wrote no Declaration of Independence.
http://www.google.com/search?
q=haiti+voodoo+history&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=sN9QS-eJIZHatgOh94GNCA&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=12&ved=0CDEQ5wIwCw
————————–
In April 2003, then Haitian President, Jean-Bertrand Aristide announced that for the first time in its long history, voodoo was to be officially recognized as a religion in Haiti.
http://www.helium.com/items/1044977-a-brief-history-of-voodoo-in-haiti
———————–
Many of Haitians, both Catholic and Protestant consistently practice voodoo today. They fully believe that both good and bad spirits are possessing their bodies and their children in trance like rituals and depending on their service to them determine their fate. One article even claims that Haitians will see the death of the Catholic archbishop as condemnation by God of the Catholic church
I would suggest that christians everywhere wake up. You can’t serve both God and the devil. God may let it rain on the just and the unjust but at some point, some day
there will be judgement for what we do that is against Him. Like it or not.
Was this such a time? God is the judge.
We need to help Haiti, we need to pray for them and we need to pray for each other.
As Christians, we are called to love. But, in my opinion, Robertson is a modern-day Pharisee and, as Jesus did to the Pharisees when he was here on earth, this modern-day Pharisee should be held accountable for his words and actions.
For a rebuttal by a rather well-known, Reformed Christian, see Albert Mohler’s post @ The Gospel Coalition: http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2010/01/15/does-god-hate-haiti/
Well I haven’t seen the comments he made but did want to make a few comments on the article:
From what I know of scripture and judging things is that we are not called to judge matters of other’s hearts, but we can judge surface things. I can sure look at some kid beating up some dog and know that it is wrong, intervene and speak up on it, yet I’m not called to judge his heart. I know God can reveal the heart but wonder how willing if we ourselves are not coming from the right heart.
On your next comment about anger. I hear ya, just remember that you aren’t the only one that’s angry and some of us have grievances and anger over other issues too. I get angry about all the stones being thrown at each other and what appears to be a lack of view (or even care for it) from the other side. It’s like why doesn’t it mean anything? Are we that awful and disliked and resented? But I don’t doubt each side has its share of that and don’t doubt also that God may allow us to continue to be blind in an area of our own shortcomings until the other side has removed the beam out of their eye.
Now do know I am not saying you are doing that, just saying that this has been a grievious area for me and do feel that it is part of the sufferings of Christ I have been asked to bear. Anyway, wanted to comment on that because I have heard quite a abit about anger in regards to things similar that you speak of and I can share that too, just know some of us are very grieved and feel anger in other areas too.
I will also say that “in my personal experiences” some of the most hurtful places for me have been places that speak more about grace and liberty and if it was up to my comfort level I would probably prefer to stay on the side of the more legalistic. The comments I have heard at how they view those that they don’t see as liberal and such as them has been like a dagger in my heart. I think I suffer from my own post-traumatic stress disorder there and when I first go into a place where I sense that is the case, I can go along with quite abit of anxiety at first. I know the mockings, jokes, the hurtful personal comments is going to hurt me deeply. One can say, “Well, don’t go.” That may work for some and may be the way to go, just for me I feel called to such a task at times. Although I like to remember that a junk food diet will make you sick so I don’t have to digest the junk (and others don’t have to digest mine), even as I can share in the grievances at a deeper level and not look to ignore others their either.
I will say that I much prefer to hear someone angry and yelling about issues because to me as when I have seen that route expressed genuinely I often heard something at a deeper level-their grievances, where the mockings and jokes “to me” seemed more like a self-righteous attitude that looked down from the same playing field.
And there are ways to express that too but I personally find that hard to receive unless you have validated your own shortcomings. Unless someone can see the worst of me in them without the grace of God, it is difficult for me to receive from them. But listen, if we were to wait until we are perfect to move we probably wouldn’t get anything done. Keep your heart before the Lord, keep communicating with Him and trust Him to lead you well.
With that said, there is still something about your article that bothers me at a deeper level. I can go by knowledge and say I am being too much and ridiculous (something you seem to feel others are doing to you so you probably can relate), or I can stop eating from that tree and go to God for Him to help me see what is the cause of what I feel deeper at heart.
I’m “wondering” if this is it and this happens to me too and feel others cannot hear me at a deeper level at times because of it when I blow up in anger or go on a rant (some are more keen though and can hear deeper). Sometimes our “delivery” speaks louder than our message and can be like static on a phone that doesn’t allow the hearer to hear you well. But we are all accountable to our Lord there so just because someone doesn’t agree with us doesn’t mean they are right. It also helps when we have heard the other side. As an auditor I have recognized the value of listening to the other side and validating their challenges, and if time allows, helping them with it, instead of just saying, “It’s wrong, get it right.” I’m not looking to compromise more essential areas but I can understand the challenges (although sometimes I can tell it is just an excuse).
There are people that need to be confronted, just know there are ways of doing that. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
I will say this that is probably not obvious in my responses here. I do speak up on issues of similar concerns but I personally do not feel comfortable doing it in an atmosphere where I feel it may be taken the wrong way and used as fuel to inappropriately come against another. “For me” that is the more grievious thing.
I do appreciate your honesty and that in itself says alot. Better to be honest with God and ourselves and even each other (to the extent it doesn’t unnecessarily hurt another) regarding what we find in our hearts. I just hope that we remember that in more public settings, beyond our personal liberties we have a responsibility out of love for God and people knowing that our words can influence.
See, now I mentioned those things like grace and love that you didn’t care to hear. Do know that I do believe I hear you to a good extent but my personal sense of responsibilty to the Lord and others (as this effects more than just you and me) moves me to mention those things that are also part of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
If it was just you and me I would probably more just give you an ear and shed a tear with you (or punch a wall), and maybe later mentioning those ohter issues on a condensed version out of my love for you and your heart. Not that I always get that right either as my concerns for the condition of others’ hearts can move me to speak prematurely at times (as I want to say, “Get out of that ditch by taking your heart to the Lord before you get gassed!”) when I may need to be listening more, but eventually, like usually as I sense of annoyance in their voice, clues me in that they just need to let it out now, unload so to speak. Unfortunately, you cannot always pick up stuff like that through just the written word that others share.
And do know some of us may be hearing some things that we ourselves are trying to work through and see more clearly. Not that long ago I woke up from a dream that left me in tears, burdened for the situation, and I immediately went into prayer.
In the dream this mother asked me to go to her home and look out for her daughter (a young lady in her early twenties is the daughter), so I went. When I went in she was in the kitchen with some friends. I don’t recall seeing them but knew they were there. I went to the livingroom and sat on a couch to just be there if she needed me or if something went bad that I needed to help with. The daughter left the kitchen and came to me and kept repeating like in desperation, “Will you go? Just go. Will you go? Just go. Just go.” I was thinking she thought I was there to interfere with what she and her friends were doing so I was trying to explain that her mom asked me to come to look out for her and I wasn’t looking to interfere with her and her friends, just there to look-out for her. But I saw her desperation and continuous plea so I got up to go and leave and she followed me to the door. The door opened (not sure if one of us opened it or it opened on its own) and I saw why she wanted me to go. I realized just then that she didn’t want me to leave for the reasons I thought. She had put her toddler in the wilderness that was across the street and she desperately wanted her back. Her continuous plea to “go, just go”, was a plea to me to go rescue her child out of the wilderness. It was like I had a vision while dreaming too and I saw the child in the wilderness by herself, all alone by herself in this wilderness and there was concern over wild animals and unsavy people and such that could get her and abuse her. I also knew that she was put there because the friends did not want the child around. So either the mom, or the friends, or both put the child in the wilderness but the mom was having serious regrets and was desperate to have her child rescued. Yet I also knew that she was still struggling with a division of what her friends preferences were there and wanting her child. That is where I woke up.
There appears to be three generations featured here. I sense that the child maybe something birthed from the second generation that has been put in the wilderness due to the disapproval of their friends. Maybe they are seeing the folly of what they have done but they still have divided hearts between what their friends want and this birthing. Someone mentioned that it may be a call to rescue this child, but I know that I woke up with two sorrow and burdens, one was for the child left in the wilderness and the other was for the mom that put her there and desperately wanted her back, just still had a divided heart there and didn’t know quite how to do that (what I sensed) so asked me to. Seemed she still cared about what her friends would think and do if she expressed this and went herself after the child.
Think this is what they term as tossing out the baby with the bathwater (or something like that).
There was another but won’t go into and this is already long. I don’t always know where these things are pointing to and if I may be in the right place at the right time but leave it to the Lord for clarity. But in that sense, can you understand why I may feel like I need to continue as I do? Until things are more clear to me or I feel a release from a certain situation (or locked out), can you see this side of things? Can I see yours? Can I validate yours while continuing in my portion?
I know, shared another dream. I just have found them wonderful aiding me in my journey as God will give them and as I can hear his voice beyond the surface stuff. But I respect others concerns, etc, especially in their homes.
Even if they don’t listen to you, remember the stories in the bible, they often weren’t listened to either but often God instructed them to speak anyway.
Anyway, my is birthday today. Worked last night and will be reporting to work again tonight so just chilling. There is someone else that shares my birthday and although I haven’t heard all his speeches, I think they are some of the best I have heard and love his insights into scriptures in them too. I think this famous speech is a wonderful example and give great insights on confronting the injustices in our society. We don’t have to agree with every word to see value.
Happy Birthday Martin Luther King Jr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbUtL_0vAJk
Anyway, know it is long so feel free to do with as you feel is most beneficial.
That’s it for me for tonight.
Love in Him,
Jo
I had abolutley no idea what you were trying to get across with those 23 paragraphs.
dont pray About him(pr)
pray For him..
word!
Steven,
You’re article is disappointing. Pat’s venture in diamond mining in Liberia the late 90′s does not make him a geologist. The gap in your logic is maddening.
winner. best comment.
I read this article, because while I found Robertson’s comments to be discouraging, I’ve found the general Christian backlash to be much much worse. What he said was wrong…stupid, and just about every other adjective in between the two. But to cast him out in such a way makes Christianity look much worse than he did with his statement. When you say that discernment and justice are the callings of the church you turn God’s gifts in to obligations. That’s the way his grace gets turned into moralism
You deny Christ when you take such an arrogant position as to say that your anger is righteous. You do not have righteous anger, because there is still sin in you. Just like there is still sin in Pat Robertson. Is his somehow worse? Are you capable of making that call? Robertson needs to be challenged and exhorted, so he might be blessed with the opportunity to repent. A Hard-hearted unwillingness to forgive is the only bullshit here.
I do not know why “moderate and liberal” Christians are the only ones perceived to speak against what Pat Robertson has said. Not political ideology nor cultural sensitivity should be the bedrock of our faith, but it should be Scripture. We are called to act like Christ and when a self-appointed leader acts in ways against the character of Christ, he should be rebuked. And his rebuke should be not done out of personal disagreement, but out of the love of Christ’s church and the stumbling block such an attitude has in the work we are do to for God’s Kingdom.
When the flood was occuring, or hail was raining down on Israel’s enemies what was happening? What’s the correct answer for what’s happened in Haiti? Is it correct to remove God from the equation by saying that it happened solely because that country sits atop volital plates under the earth’s surface? I think there are two answers for everything that happens in nature………the scientific one (plates moved and an earthquake happened) and, God’s hand is on it. How can God not be involved? In Amos it says, “when disaster has come to a city, has the Lord not caused it?” And we know from the book of Job who even the lightning answers to God. Sure, Pat Robertson was stupid to make those remarks…he has not idea why God does what he does. And it’s ridiculous for him to be so insensitive to hurting people, not to mention the damage he does to the name of Christ when he makes comments like those. But when you think about why these things happen, don’t forget to consider God’s sovereignty, and to seek him for comfort, questions, and pleas for those in need.
Hey, I was on earlier but didn’t come back to this one. Did now as I was considering these things and wanted to elaborate on two things in specific, and as I caught up on the conversation it appears they have been touched on some already.
One of my pet peeves is using a double-edged sword one way. I especially dislike it when I find myself doing it. I didn’t see where I did that as I know I can muse on what may be amiss but I know it does take revelation (and revelation is more than Spiritual sight to me but seeing with the heart of God) to know what is amiss.
So, I just wanted to say in my “wondering” I do recongize that until we understand that higher ground of God’s heart on it foung in Jesus, there is the responsibility of EACH SIDE. I recalled specifically in the past elsewhere when someone kept bringing up the topic of speaking graciously but did not consider the other side of receiving with grace too. That became a problem for me. Our measuring scale is not man but God’s heart found in Christ.
The other issue was regarding giftings. You spoke of discernment and will mention again what a valuable tool dreams and visions (not only mine but those of others) have been to me.
I don’t like to make rules of these things because once we make a rule of them we tend to rely more on our knowledge than seeking the heart of God on things. With that said, no rule here but will mention on how at times someone will dream or have a vision with some type of equipment they have, like maybe a special pair of glasses or some hearing aid. You have to take the dream, as with scripture, in context and what God may be speaking at heart. Anyway, at times with the overall dream I can tell that the glasses, hearing aid, or whatever the equipping may be there is just that, an equipping or gift that has been given to us. I tend to feel that when a dream or vision shows something more within the actual eye or ear that THIS MAY (no rules) indicate (depending on the contents again, and the heart) that it is something that they may be more equipped with connected at heart with the Lord.
I also was considering 1 Corinthians 13 (that wonderful love chapter) regarding how without the love of God we are just making noise.
I have also seen where people take their discernment run with prematurely when they may need to seek God further for connection to his heart on it. And I don’t doubt I’ve been there and done that and probably still do at times. Trust me, I’ve made mistakes in my giftings too. When I first began to dream quite often I used to think that if I saw something with someone that was the end of the story. So, in some of my good intentions I would tell the person what I saw thinking it would be a help. I was surprised by some of the responses I got and would go to the Lord about it. Like, “What went wrong?” Anyway, have learned quite a bit since then and still have a ways to go but one of the things I learned is that what we first see (whether through a dream, vision, discernment, etc) can be surface stuff and it can be an invitation to seek the Lord further to get to the heart of the matter and his heart on it. Also learned, not everything is meant to be shared as that can cause more problems than help, but we can pray as these things can be a call to prayer. We live and learn and hopefully are progressing in Him.
Anyway, some notes from my personal journey.
Love in Him,
Jo
One more. One more! Sorry, forgot to include this one. I also recalled Jesus speaking firmly to the pharisees yet He knew what was the condition of their hearts and spoke out of being connected to Father’s heart as they are One.
Paul, in his persecution of the church was not spoken to in the same manner when Jesus revealed himself to Him. Instead, Jesus allowed Him to see whom He was actually persecuting. As Paul later noted, God was gracious to Him because He did it in ignorance. Appears Paul was probably doing it in the right heart, just needed a Damascus Road experience to help Him see properly. We all could use one of those at times.
That be it.
Love in Him,
Jo
Alright, so I got one more.
Quote:
“I read this article, because while I found Robertson’s comments to be discouraging, I’ve found the general Christian backlash to be much much worse.”
Although I don’t claim to understand everyone’s challenges and grievances, etc (or claim to be perfect myself, except when joking), this is why I say that “in my personal experiences” and what I have encountered, if it was about my comfort level, I would prefer to remain with the more legalistic (and such) in that regard. A good deal seem more loving to me and have even put me to shame, in a good sense, not in a condemning way.
Speaking in general terms.
Wonder if they will ever get their apology? Guess I can apologize to that side too.
Love in Him,
Jo
“Here’s why there was a horrific earthquake in Haiti: It sits on an unstable fault line between two tectonic plates.”
Consider: God “works all things according to the counsel of his will,” (Ephesians 1:11) including the fall of the sparrow (Matthew 10:29), and presumably, the earthquake under Haiti. “Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?” (Amos 3:6). “I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things” (Isaiah 45:7). Whether it is His judgment or not is not for us to decide; but we devalue hope in God’s power and sovereignty to not count it as part of the “all things” being worked according to the counsel of His will.
“I’m done with idiots who do this to the Christ and His Church…someone need[s] to tell the world that Christians think Pat Robertson is a jerk and an idiot and we’d shut him up if we could. No acknowledgement that he’s our brother, we still love him, or that we disagree respectfully. Just a loud, bold-faced message that he’s wrong and we don’t like him.”
Consider: “Everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire” (Matthew 5:22). Although, “If a brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him” (Luke 17:3), we should do so in love: “You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with [him], lest you incur sin because of him…you shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Leviticus 19:17-18).
“It’s time for moderate to liberal Evangelicals get angry out loud. We are called to love, but we are also called to justice.”
Consider: “What does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God” (Micah 6:8). “Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow’s cause” (Isaiah 1:17). Justice here seems focused on “doing” to redeem the broken rather than getting “angry out loud.”
“I’m right about this and Pat Robertson is wrong. I am a sinner saved by grace, but my anger is righteous.”
Consider: “Know this, my beloved brother; let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; for the anger of many does not produce the righteousness of God” (James 1:19). So “why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written ‘As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue confess to God.’ So then each of us will give an account of himself to God” (Romans 14:10-12).
“Pat Robertson is blocking many people’s view of Christ.”
Consider: “The god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel or the glory of Christ” (2 Corinthians 4:4). Robertson, or any of us, cannot obscure the glorious light of God. It is “God who…has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (2 Corinthians 4:6).”
“My little rant isn’t good enough. We need someone with a microphone as big as Robertson’s. Someone like Rick Warren. I’d settle for Joel Olsteen or even Creflo Dollar if we can’t find anyone else. The world won’t listen to me.”
Consider: “if possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord’” (Romans 12:18-19).
“But if you happen to be listening Pat, shut up.”
Consider: “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother” (Matthew 18:15).
“More importantly, may God keep Haiti in our hearts and shower upon them miracles mightier than any earthquake.”
Amen.
I hear you brother. But if you consider Robertson a brother, then you are under orders to correct him in love. And if you consider him an enemy, you are under orders to love and pray for him.
Much love,
ct
Wait, your using Matthew 18:25 to publicly criticize Stephen for publicly criticizing Pat Robertson? Methinks I see hypocricy.
Hi Emily,
I actually thought of that this weekend and wondered if I was a hypocrite. So I’m glad you brought it up. Not so I can defend myself, but so I can figure out if I am, and if I am, repent of it and apologize to Stephen.
While I was wondering if I was a hypocrite, I realized that the “go to your brother” idea is given if your brother sins against you. I’m not sure Stephen or I are in this boat—Stephen hasn’t sinned against me, and Robertson didn’t sin against him. Now Stephen may have sinned against Robertson in his response, and I may have sinned against Stephen in mind. Ultimately, I’m not sure Matthew 18 applies here, so I think I’ve misused it in this context. I wish repenting of that could including editing comments, but it doesn’t, so these comments will have to suffice =).
I suppose the real question now is how we should criticize or reprove brothers or sisters in Christ in a public way. I would say Stephen criticized Robertson publicly—should he have done so, and if so, in what manner? I publicly reproved Stephen—should I have done so, and if so, in what manner? I do think there is a difference in criticism and reproof, and I think the difference is in the way in which it is done and the spirit in which it is given. Criticism is meant to tear down; reproof is meant to build up. Are we motivated by anger (and what does righteous anger look like), or are we motivated by love?
I thought of two passages that seem to apply: “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom…with thankfulness in your hearts to God” (Colossians 3:16). And: “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work…preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction” (2 Timothy 3:16-17, 4:2). Going back to the heart of criticism in general, I don’t see it being done in a way that is indwelt by the word of Christ, with a heart of thankfulness and great patience. Where reproof and exhortation are done by the Word, with gratitude, and with patience, they serve to equip the church for every good work.
That was my intention in writing—to exhort Stephen in his comments, by the Word, so that he, and all of us, might be built up for good works—although I may have done so poorly.
And Stephen, sorry to be discussing you here like we’re talking about you behind your back. I guess this is just the nature of public commentary. You won’t find me defending Robertson here at all; I just mean to try to call us to a Christ-centered, God-glorifying conversation in a way that edifies the church. I presumed to judge the intentions of your heart, and only you can know whether your heart means to build up, with thankfulness and patience, so the church might be equipped. If I have not judged rightly, I do sincerely apologize. *I enjoyed Assaulted by Joy by the way, and Jordan has said nice things about you, so I hope we can be friends after all this =).
To close, Abraham Piper wrote the following about his own commenting habits (under Be Quick to Listen, Slow to Comment): “Often I discover that my goal is not to contribute but to correct, or worse, criticize. In these cases, I delete the comment and stay out of the fray.” I think that’s good advice I might start taking.
Emily, thanks for calling me out when you thought it was necessary; I welcome any other thoughts you might have.
ct
Thank you for writing this. I personally wrote a bit of a rant re. Robertson and his lies. More than just a distaste for his words, I think he is a false prophet, and I think he places his politics before his God. Both are awful, and both should be addressed- I want more Christians (conservatives as well as moderates and liberals) to speak against him, because the Bible speaks a lot about false prophets. I pray that Robertson will be saved, but I also pray that his megaphone will be removed and that he will cease leading the millions who watch his TV show astray with lies. It breaks God’s heart.
you touched on some valid points, but please do your research on Joel Osteen, he is far more unhinged than Robertson
Thanks for the awesome post, I loved reading it!